XCard Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Taken from Winter Bulletin @Wrestling Scholar 6. Determination of seeded wrestlers is given in order of importance: Varsity contests are the only record submitted for seeding consideration. a. Head to head competition current year; (The wrestler with the most head to head wins gets the seed. If they have beaten each other an equal number of times, then the winner of the last match gets the seed. Head to head is counted at any level of interscholastic competition. Matches against teammates are not counted for seeding purposes.); b. Record against common opponents; c. Semi‐State quarterfinalist, or higher in previous year IHSAA Tournament Series; d. Win percentage. A contestant with the best overall record (winning percentage) who has wrestled at least 10 matches; For seeding purposes, forfeits should not be included in a wrestler’s record. e. Farthest advancement in previous year IHSAA State Tournament Series; f. Draw by lot. Criteria is reset after determining each seed. Criteria is reset after determining each seed NOTE: A wrestler with less than ten matches may not be seeded ahead of a wrestler with at least ten matches and a winning record unless he/she meets criteria in a, b or c. A wrestler with a losing record may not be seeded unless he/she meets criteria a, b or c unless there are less than six (6) wrestlers in the bracket. base 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWSpectator Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Do they have any other common opponents? If not, and those three are the only common opponents then I feel like the seeding should be B, C, A. B has a 2-1 record, A has a 1-1 record, and C has a 1-2 record against the common opponents which just so happens to be the three of these wrestlers, so B would get the seed based on best record against common opponents, then the seeding should reset, and would go to C next with his win over A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 34 minutes ago, SWSpectator said: Do they have any other common opponents? If not, and those three are the only common opponents then I feel like the seeding should be B, C, A. B has a 2-1 record, A has a 1-1 record, and C has a 1-2 record against the common opponents which just so happens to be the three of these wrestlers, so B would get the seed based on best record against common opponents, then the seeding should reset, and would go to C next with his win over A. After a quick look the common opponents criteria gets just as hairy especially because two of the wrestlers are in the same conference and wrestle MANY same opponents. It looks like that becomes another round robin there. If my calculations are correct it becomes A over C(who defeated him), B over C(who defeated him), and C over A(who defeated him). Basically, in my 15 years of coaching you go to record and one kid had about 5 or 6 less losses so he "deserves" the highest possible seed. However, not arguing that as my whole point is the seed shouldn't be determined by the head to head criteria based on seeing a kid multiple times. SWSpectator 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perseverance Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 (edited) I think the IHSAA should just begin allowing wrestle offs at seeding meetings. I kid. Just trying to lighten the load gentlemen. Stressful, but very fun time of year. Enjoy the ride. Edited January 23, 2018 by Perseverance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlevito Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 2 hours ago, XCard said: a. Head to head competition current year; (The wrestler with the most head to head wins gets the seed. If they have beaten each other an equal number of times, then the winner of the last match gets the seed. Head to head is counted at any level of interscholastic competition. Matches against teammates are not counted for seeding purposes.); One person can read this as a head to head win is against a single person equaling only one win meaning each kid has a head to head win over another wrestler, and you move on to the next criteria. Or a person can read this as total wins in head to head, meaning one kid has two head to head wins and the other two only have one. This is where there needs to be total clarification from the IHSAA. Cause one sectional is going to do it one way while another sectional is going to do it another way. And like always, we have an establishment of people (IHSAA) that doesn't understand the sport of wrestling, but makes decisions without clarity for others and decisions that only benefit them financially and not the kids competing in the sport. XCard 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swain358 Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 10 minutes ago, littlevito said: One person can read this as a head to head win is against a single person equaling only one win meaning each kid has a head to head win over another wrestler, and you move on to the next criteria. Or a person can read this as total wins in head to head, meaning one kid has two head to head wins and the other two only have one. This is where there needs to be total clarification from the IHSAA. Cause one sectional is going to do it one way while another sectional is going to do it another way. And like always, we have an establishment of people (IHSAA) that doesn't understand the sport of wrestling, but makes decisions without clarity for others and decisions that only benefit them financially and not the kids competing in the sport. Two years ago Faulkens came to our seeding meeting and he literally said its "most head to head wins against the field in a round robin situation". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkJoeNamath Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, XCard said: Taken from Winter Bulletin @Wrestling Scholar 6. Determination of seeded wrestlers is given in order of importance: Varsity contests are the only record submitted for seeding consideration. a. Head to head competition current year; (The wrestler with the most head to head wins gets the seed. If they have beaten each other an equal number of times, then the winner of the last match gets the seed. Head to head is counted at any level of interscholastic competition. Matches against teammates are not counted for seeding purposes.); b. Record against common opponents; c. Semi‐State quarterfinalist, or higher in previous year IHSAA Tournament Series; d. Win percentage. A contestant with the best overall record (winning percentage) who has wrestled at least 10 matches; For seeding purposes, forfeits should not be included in a wrestler’s record. e. Farthest advancement in previous year IHSAA State Tournament Series; f. Draw by lot. Criteria is reset after determining each seed. Criteria is reset after determining each seed NOTE: A wrestler with less than ten matches may not be seeded ahead of a wrestler with at least ten matches and a winning record unless he/she meets criteria in a, b or c. A wrestler with a losing record may not be seeded unless he/she meets criteria a, b or c unless there are less than six (6) wrestlers in the bracket. Is it reasonable that winning percentage has any leg to stand on when coming to seeding? Teams like cathedral, brownburg, perry, among others.. wrestle some very tough schedules and I'm sure have to have a debate over win percentage at a sectional. Seems like it should be a bit lower down the list than it is... Edited January 23, 2018 by DrunkJoeNamath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlevito Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 43 minutes ago, DrunkJoeNamath said: Is it reasonable that winning percentage has any leg to stand on when coming to seeding? Teams like cathedral, brownburg, perry, among others.. wrestle some very tough schedules and I'm sure have to have a debate over win percentage at a sectional. Seems like it should be a bit lower down the list than it is... Strength of schedule does not come into play for seeding criteria purposes, but usually ends up working itself out in the matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 45 minutes ago, DrunkJoeNamath said: Is it reasonable that winning percentage has any leg to stand on when coming to seeding? Teams like cathedral, brownburg, perry, among others.. wrestle some very tough schedules and I'm sure have to have a debate over win percentage at a sectional. Seems like it should be a bit lower down the list than it is... It is the 4th criteria, what should come before it? Bench press max, takedowns, pins, number of girls kissed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlevito Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said: It is the 4th criteria, what should come before it? Bench press max, takedowns, pins, number of girls kissed? Best mustache or mullet. If both, straight ticket to semi-state. Coach Masters and BuscoWrestling 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrunkJoeNamath Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said: It is the 4th criteria, what should come before it? Bench press max, takedowns, pins, number of girls kissed? 34 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said: It is the 4th criteria, what should come before it? Bench press max, takedowns, pins, number of girls kissed? Bench press? Cmon that doesn't matter?! Bet I benched the least at my weight every year I was in high school! (To your point I wasn't all that good) in all seriousness, we are in a topic that directly eliminates criteria A. Criteria B is awfully descriminatory to high level freshman or out of state transfers (if I needed to reach I'd say high level JV). Criteria C and D can be related due to toughness of schedule. How often do we come to criteria D? With good kids, quite often. It's hard to say there's a good answer, I guess I'm here to discuss rather than give a good solution. There's not really a solid way to seed because we as coaches want what is best for our wrestlers, even with the knowledge our guy might not be better than another.. but, number of girls kissed might be a solution if I had to steal one. Edited January 23, 2018 by Y2CJ41 Fixed format Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 2 hours ago, swain358 said: Two years ago Faulkens came to our seeding meeting and he literally said its "most head to head wins against the field in a round robin situation". That was last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, DrunkJoeNamath said: Bench press? Cmon that doesn't matter?! Bet I benched the least at my weight every year I was in high school! (To your point I wasn't all that good) in all seriousness, we are in a topic that directly eliminates criteria A. Criteria B is awfully descriminatory to high level freshman or out of state transfers (if I needed to reach I'd say high level JV). Criteria C and D can be related due to toughness of schedule. How often do we come to criteria D? With good kids, quite often. It's hard to say there's a good answer, I guess I'm here to discuss rather than give a good solution. There's not really a solid way to seed because we as coaches want what is best for our wrestlers, even with the knowledge our guy might not be better than another.. but, number of girls kissed might be a solution if I had to steal one. B- Common opponents shouldn't "discriminate" against anyone unless they come into the lineup late in the season or have injuries/suspension that keeps them out for part of the season. C- Obviously could discriminate, but in all honesty I think that comes into play very rarely as a ticket rounder will usually have common wins or head to heads or a good enough record no one challenges them. D- Obviously record Most seeding meetings I have been to start with records as the starting point to seed. If the seed is challenged you go to A, B, and C as needed. If the challenge to the seed fails the guy gets the seed. How many times it comes down to record is hard to track as there are many times where coaches won't challenge the seed because they lost to the kid or know they have a common opponent loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWINfan Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 14 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said: It is the 4th criteria, what should come before it? Bench press max, takedowns, pins, number of girls kissed? Do they keep stats on that last one? Seems like someone might get in trouble if that got out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted January 25, 2018 Share Posted January 25, 2018 (edited) Don't know how you interpret the by-laws here, but at first blush, both the interpretation and the intuitive result feel the same--the kid that is 2-1 should get the nod over the kids that are 1-1 and 1-2 when everyone has wrestled each other. Simply put, B has proven more. If we did wins-losses based Genius ratings for individuals, we would probably calibrate all victories as about 8-point victories. Running these 3 guys through the Genius system would then put B as about a 1.5-point favorite over A and a 3-point favorite over C in hypothetical upcoming matches. Edited January 25, 2018 by maligned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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