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Sectional mis-seeding

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Every year there are some questionable seeding scenarios, where will they be this year?  Copying and pasting my pet peeve from last several years:

Here is another complaint -- and I raise this every year -- in the sectionals with > 8 teams several of the wrestlers are put into a "one-and-done" scenario.  If you are lucky enough to have a sectional with only 8 teams, then no matter what your record you are in double-elimination with a chance to wrestle back for 4th and a move to Regionals.

 

So, if you look at the sectionals with > 8 teams they have to seed the top 6 and then the rest are random draw.  However, since only 6 are seeded, that leaves 2 quarterfinal slots that are completely open.  In my opinion, the unseeded wrestlers should go there to battle it out with each other.  Instead, some sectionals do a complete random draw and place an unseeded wrestler against a top seed, while another unseeded wrestler lucks out and gets a bye in that empty quarterfinal slot.

 

Mooresville coaches have done it right -- the unseeded wrestlers are always paired up on those open slots and the #1 and #2 seeds always draw a bye to the quarterfinals.  Meanwhile, as an example in the Crawfordsville sectional at 182 there is unseeded Wrestler with 17-17 record who has drawn into a first round with the #2 seed.  If he loses, then he is done - no chance to wrestle back for 4th.  In the same bracket, a 12-23 wrestler gets a first round bye to the quarterfinals.  If he loses he still has a shot at wrestling back to move on.  I would like to see that 17-17 unseeded matched up against the 12-23 unseeded wrestler and give the #2 guy a bye.  That way at least both of the unseeded have a better shot to battle for that #3 or #4 finish and another weekend.  For some kids, that alone may make their entire season.

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Our athletic director inquired with the IHSAA on the ability to place the pig tails with unseeded wrestlers. He was told that we CANNOT do that and any change of that nature needs to come from a proposal from our coaches association. Mooresville and others doing this are not abiding by the IHSAA rules.

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3 minutes ago, maligned said:

Hmm...does "it's easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission" apply here?

 

That would suck cuz the kids will be penalized in this scenario..

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1 minute ago, guillotine said:

Sounds ridiculous that the ihsaa hasnt already solved this problem.  Hopefully common sense will prevail......soon.

Our coaches association needs to push for this. I'm not privy to their conversations, but I'd hope they have brought this up.

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11 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Our coaches association needs to push for this. I'm not privy to their conversations, but I'd hope they have brought this up.

Completely agree Joe, let’s get the best 4 kids through

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We had a scenario at The Bill Kerbel Invitation.  A semi-state quarter finalist didn't have 10 matches in; therefore, he wasn't able to be seeded.  He met the #1 seed in the quarter finals.  He won and the #1 seed finished 5th (it's just how our bracket was set up).  What if this was sectional, and he was drawn into the #1 seed.  It would be an unlikely situation, but it could happen when the rules are followed.  

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7 minutes ago, NH-Coach said:

We had a scenario at The Bill Kerbel Invitation.  A semi-state quarter finalist didn't have 10 matches in; therefore, he wasn't able to be seeded.  He met the #1 seed in the quarter finals.  He won and the #1 seed finished 5th (it's just how our bracket was set up).  What if this was sectional, and he was drawn into the #1 seed.  It would be an unlikely situation, but it could happen when the rules are followed.  

That specific situation shouldn’t be an issue using Sectional Seed Criteria.   After head to head and common opponents comes Semi-state quarterfinalist an furthest before record criteria is used. 

 

c. Semi‐State quarterfinalist, or higher in previous year IHSAA Tournament Series;
d. Win percentage. A contestant with the best overall record (winning percentage) who has wrestled at least 10

 

Now if he was just a semi-state qualifier then the criteria of fathest advancement in the state tournament doesn’t come into play until after record. 

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Should always strive whats best for the sport. Someone in charge of wrestling should know wrestling. If you've never wrestled and won or lost. You simply don't understand. And it can't be explained. Let's strive to make the greatest sport on earth greater. 

Back to the subject!!! As mentioned above. Do what we know is best and ask for forgiveness later. 

 

Phil Cook

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1 hour ago, NH-Coach said:

We had a scenario at The Bill Kerbel Invitation.  A semi-state quarter finalist didn't have 10 matches in; therefore, he wasn't able to be seeded.  He met the #1 seed in the quarter finals.  He won and the #1 seed finished 5th (it's just how our bracket was set up).  What if this was sectional, and he was drawn into the #1 seed.  It would be an unlikely situation, but it could happen when the rules are followed.  

That was seeded incorrectly then, per the Winter Bulletin

NOTE: A wrestler with less than ten matches may not be seeded ahead of a wrestler with at least ten matches and a winning record unless he/she meets criteria in a, b or c. 

Criteria C is semi-state quarter-finalist

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Now that the brackets are out, here are a couple examples I've been able to find that illustrate this seeding issue:

Avon Sectional, 182 pounds

Because there are > 8 teams, if you are matched up in a rat-tail and lose you are done.  Keep in mind that 6 are seeded, so that leaves 2 open slots in the quarterfinals.  In my opinion, the 4 remaining wrestlers should be matched in pig-tail in those 2 open slots. This would let the non-seeded wrestlers go against each other for a chance to fight back for likely 3rd or 4th place and a spot at Regionals.

However, because the remaining 4 wrestlers are random-drawn into all of the bracket spots you have this: A wrestler with a 4-20 record draws a bye in the pigtail, so even if they do lose their next match they can wrestle back for placement.  Meanwhile, a senior with a 19-10 record is randomly drawn in the pigtail against another senior with a 32-6 record.  One of these 2 will lose the match and their wrestling career is done -- no chance for wrestle back to move on.

Twin Lakes Sectional, 160 pounds

Maybe not as big of a deal but again this is about getting it right for kids to have a chance to get to one more weekend...

In the pigtail round, a wrestler with a 6-4 record has to face a 13-7 wrestler with one of them going home immediately.  Another wrestler with a 0-21 record draws the lucky open spot and has a bye to the next round. He will have double elimination -- one of the other two will not.

There are a few others that I saw glancing through some of the sectionals with larger # of teams where it's likely that there are more than 8 wrestlers in a weight class (otherwise with forfeits they will all get to the round of 8).

Coaches -- please ask for this simple change -- it makes sense, hurts nobody, doesn't add any additional time to the seeding meetings and will give some wrestlers (especially those seniors) a better chance to have an opportunity to earn their way to another weekend of high school wrestling.

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10 minutes ago, base said:

Coaches -- please ask for this simple change -- it makes sense, hurts nobody, doesn't add any additional time to the seeding meetings and will give some wrestlers (especially those seniors) a better chance to have an opportunity to earn their way to another weekend of high school wrestling.

While I agree with this, it is only one case within the State Tournament Series where this sort of issue happens.  Granted it is an easier fix than adding wrestle-backs to Regionals or SS or Sate for that matter.  Philosophically, here in IN, we try to find the 1 best wrestler at a weight.

Again, doesn't mean we should not 'fix' the issues described above, but just changes things by 1 week...

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25 minutes ago, base said:

Now that the brackets are out, here are a couple examples I've been able to find that illustrate this seeding issue:

Avon Sectional, 182 pounds

Because there are > 8 teams, if you are matched up in a rat-tail and lose you are done.  Keep in mind that 6 are seeded, so that leaves 2 open slots in the quarterfinals.  In my opinion, the 4 remaining wrestlers should be matched in pig-tail in those 2 open slots. This would let the non-seeded wrestlers go against each other for a chance to fight back for likely 3rd or 4th place and a spot at Regionals.

However, because the remaining 4 wrestlers are random-drawn into all of the bracket spots you have this: A wrestler with a 4-20 record draws a bye in the pigtail, so even if they do lose their next match they can wrestle back for placement.  Meanwhile, a senior with a 19-10 record is randomly drawn in the pigtail against another senior with a 32-6 record.  One of these 2 will lose the match and their wrestling career is done -- no chance for wrestle back to move on.

Twin Lakes Sectional, 160 pounds

Maybe not as big of a deal but again this is about getting it right for kids to have a chance to get to one more weekend...

In the pigtail round, a wrestler with a 6-4 record has to face a 13-7 wrestler with one of them going home immediately.  Another wrestler with a 0-21 record draws the lucky open spot and has a bye to the next round. He will have double elimination -- one of the other two will not.

There are a few others that I saw glancing through some of the sectionals with larger # of teams where it's likely that there are more than 8 wrestlers in a weight class (otherwise with forfeits they will all get to the round of 8).

Coaches -- please ask for this simple change -- it makes sense, hurts nobody, doesn't add any additional time to the seeding meetings and will give some wrestlers (especially those seniors) a better chance to have an opportunity to earn their way to another weekend of high school wrestling.

Fixing the bracket should be a top priority for the IHSWCA. However, I'm not sure it will be. I know a very high ranking IHSWCA officer has heard it for a few years that the coaches association needs to get that fixed with the IHSAA. What he has done with that information I do not know. 

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