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#2Cathedral vs #3Perry Meridian: Friendly and respectful Thoughts and scenarios about the 120 pound Forfeit to Sam Fair.(No drama or arguing please.just something id like to hear opinions on this slow snow day)


Wrestling4EVER

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This may be a little silly really to some but i just keep thinking about it. I am just wondering if they maybe out smarted their self because they panicked maybe because of score? Not downing any coach from Cathedral at all. They know way more than I will ever know.but this is a discussion board and I would like to see what everyone else says about it. I think by doing what they did then they put alot of pressure on HAVING to get bonus points most matches against above average wrestlers..if it stays like what it was supposed to then just some wins by decision would of worked. I'm wondering if the score made them kind of panic and gamble a little which is totally understandable because nothing was going their way. No close calls or anything. And McGinley was very noticeably frustrated with Refs and some really questionable calls like the one that started the whole dual and very understandably so.Anyone woulda been. I actually was feeling bad after a while for him because every call was going against them it seemed. Just wondering if this affected his decision to FF to fair or if it was the plan all along.so with it being a very slow day because of weather then I figured we'd spend a little time talking/discussion/opinionating(word??lol) about something I tried to figure out and would like a little more in depth answer/reasoning behind it. 

Ok so the score at the time of the Fair ff was 21-10 Perry was ahead. If I'm thinking about this right(which could totally be wrong and this is why I'm asking) then Sammy Fair would have had to beat Walendzak at 120 for them to win. if they wrestled Walendzak at 120..here is what I got and please again correct me if in wrong PLEASE!

126 lets just say Zepeda beat Andrew Wilson(he wrestled 126 against portages#5 ranked poynter and lost 23-9 . and lost to #10 ranked kelly 16-6 so I believe Zepeda may win by a few points at most because Wilson is very solid.) The score would be 24-10 Perry. 

132 Mosconi pinned land 24-16

138 Melloh Dec Lowery 24-19

145 Slivka Dec Warren (which I personally think he'd major him next time but he kinda knew he had to wrestle a different kind of match and takedowns wouldn't get him a pin and a team win.) but again Warren is tough as nails so I could be wrong on this also.the score would be 24-22 Perry and wed still have the 120 result left. 

So IF and this is a big if Zepeda beat Wilson(Wilson actually could hang with Zepeda and pull out the win IMO) then Fair would have had to beat Walendzak for Perry to win.it woulda been a #3 vs #4 so it woulda been a good one.. if Wilson beat Zepeda then score woulda been 25-21 cathedral and Fair would of had to at least major walendzak which was not gonna happen lol. now if Zepeda beat Wilson which he was probably favored then the dual woulda went to the winner of the match of the dual #3 vs #4 Fair against Walendzak!  

 

I know some people are gonna say shoulda coulda smoulda which I agree but just go to another topic lol. I just don't like giving up 6 points in a huge dual like this. That's a pin.6 points is like almost 1/4 of points you gave up.now if you have a Bratton or parris and you are almost positive you can bump him and get at least a tech fall then I understand. But no way they were really positive that walendzak could move up and at the worst tech fall a really solid Zepeda. I know this is alot of info to process and think about situations but like I said it's a really slow weather day and this was a huge meet and this was a huge turning point and decision so i would love to get other opinions. Thanks alot and again no disrespect to any cathedral coach. They are some of the best not only in Indiana but in the nation. But again just wondering if they may have panicked a little because of how dual was going and the score at time.because they were actually gaining momentum at the time and won the few matches before the Ff.thanks in advance. And I don't want an argument please. 

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14 minutes ago, fearless fly said:

I personally think its sad when team success trumps individual mat time no matter what the individual outcome will be...

Are you trolling? You've got what many have argued could be the best duals team in the state and you're wrestling arguably the best team you'll see all season and you don't consider lineup shifts to try to win as a team? I respectfully disagree.

As far as this thread's original question goes...Cathedral clearly thought it was possible they could lose two decisions and come out minus-6 between those two weights and so they took a gamble and guaranteed themselves minus-3 at worst knowing Walendzak would take at least a decision up a weight. They probably thought they had a chance to come out even with a pin at 126 but didn't get it. It would have been a calculated gamble to play it either way. This time, the route they chose didn't go their way.

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I

19 minutes ago, maligned said:

Are you trolling? You've got what many have argued could be the best duals team in the state and you're wrestling arguably the best team you'll see all season and you don't consider lineup shifts to try to win as a team? I respectfully disagree.

As far as this thread's original question goes...Cathedral clearly thought it was possible they could lose two decisions and come out minus-6 between those two weights and so they took a gamble and guaranteed themselves minus-3 at worst knowing Walendzak would take at least a decision up a weight. They probably thought they had a chance to come out even with a pin at 126 but didn't get it. It would have been a calculated gamble to play it either way. This time, the route they chose didn't go their way.

I 100% agree with you I was going to put something very similar when I saw this thread.

 

About not bumping i also totally disagree. It's a dual meet, try to win. As I said in the broadcast I think sometimes how kids wrestle I'm certain situations comes down to philosophy maybe coach McGinley was fine losing the dual and wanted Jordan to just win the match at the end. Nothing wrong with that they tried all they could to win and the coin just didn't fall their way that night. But to say it's sad when a team bumps is just wrong in my opinion. Individual Tournament yeah do your thing (we bumped kids last year for this to help us win a few, kids were okay with it because they like winning, it's fun) but if your in a dual meet and you don't think you should strategize and bump line ups it's just bad for the sport. All the top teams do it because every team point counts. That kid giving up a Dec instead of a major against a ranked opponent could be the deciding factor in that dual meet.

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3 hours ago, 84headhunter said:

What I'm wondering is why you're thinking about this at 5 in the morning...

its all about not giving up bonus

Hey man sometimes we wake up and just asked questions I get it :P you guys think this would be a good topic for the SQUEEEEEEZZZZEEEEE?

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I agree with Maligned. I think the it was the right decision and partially worked. And, not a lot worked for Cathedral that night, nevertheless, a call or a mistake goes the other way and it's a different outcome. Two very good and closely matched teams...it was fun.

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3 hours ago, Wrestling4EVER said:

This may be a little silly really to some but i just keep thinking about it. I am just wondering if they maybe out smarted their self because they panicked maybe because of score? Not downing any coach from Cathedral at all. They know way more than I will ever know.but this is a discussion board and I would like to see what everyone else says about it. I think by doing what they did then they put alot of pressure on HAVING to get bonus points most matches against above average wrestlers..if it stays like what it was supposed to then just some wins by decision would of worked. I'm wondering if the score made them kind of panic and gamble a little which is totally understandable because nothing was going their way. No close calls or anything. And McGinley was very noticeably frustrated with Refs and some really questionable calls like the one that started the whole dual and very understandably so.Anyone woulda been. I actually was feeling bad after a while for him because every call was going against them it seemed. Just wondering if this affected his decision to FF to fair or if it was the plan all along.so with it being a very slow day because of weather then I figured we'd spend a little time talking/discussion/opinionating(word??lol) about something I tried to figure out and would like a little more in depth answer/reasoning behind it. 

Ok so the score at the time of the Fair ff was 21-10 Perry was ahead. If I'm thinking about this right(which could totally be wrong and this is why I'm asking) then Sammy Fair would have had to beat Walendzak at 120 for them to win. if they wrestled Walendzak at 120..here is what I got and please again correct me if in wrong PLEASE!

126 lets just say Zepeda beat Andrew Wilson(he wrestled 126 against portages#5 ranked poynter and lost 23-9 . and lost to #10 ranked kelly 16-6 so I believe Zepeda may win by a few points at most because Wilson is very solid.) The score would be 24-10 Perry. 

132 Mosconi pinned land 24-16

138 Melloh Dec Lowery 24-19

145 Slivka Dec Warren (which I personally think he'd major him next time but he kinda knew he had to wrestle a different kind of match and takedowns wouldn't get him a pin and a team win.) but again Warren is tough as nails so I could be wrong on this also.the score would be 24-22 Perry and wed still have the 120 result left. 

So IF and this is a big if Zepeda beat Wilson(Wilson actually could hang with Zepeda and pull out the win IMO) then Fair would have had to beat Walendzak for Perry to win.it woulda been a #3 vs #4 so it woulda been a good one.. if Wilson beat Zepeda then score woulda been 25-21 cathedral and Fair would of had to at least major walendzak which was not gonna happen lol. now if Zepeda beat Wilson which he was probably favored then the dual woulda went to the winner of the match of the dual #3 vs #4 Fair against Walendzak!  

 

I know some people are gonna say shoulda coulda smoulda which I agree but just go to another topic lol. I just don't like giving up 6 points in a huge dual like this. That's a pin.6 points is like almost 1/4 of points you gave up.now if you have a Bratton or parris and you are almost positive you can bump him and get at least a tech fall then I understand. But no way they were really positive that walendzak could move up and at the worst tech fall a really solid Zepeda. I know this is alot of info to process and think about situations but like I said it's a really slow weather day and this was a huge meet and this was a huge turning point and decision so i would love to get other opinions. Thanks alot and again no disrespect to any cathedral coach. They are some of the best not only in Indiana but in the nation. But again just wondering if they may have panicked a little because of how dual was going and the score at time.because they were actually gaining momentum at the time and won the few matches before the Ff.thanks in advance. And I don't want an argument please. 

 

     In my opinion I think it was there best chance to win the dual. If I were in their position I would have done the same. The thought being we will run the table with the

remaining matches. They obviously expected bonus points at 145 which you stated you think would happen the next time they wrestle. I think at the least Sammy wins a

decision (major or better very possible) and Luis wins a decision. They couldn't have came back from that. They did put pressure on their guys who they expected to put up 

bonus points. Just did not quite go as they planned. 

 

1 hour ago, fearless fly said:

I personally think its sad when team success trumps individual mat time no matter what the individual outcome will be...

 

         I don't understand a word you are saying here. It seems like a foreign language to me. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but that

goes against everything we teach and talk about in our room. 

 

 

 

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