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Seeding Meeting Change???

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13 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

I might have to use my #The County Lawyer status to interpret here,  but remember last year the controversy at a certain sectional.   I think the criteria used was  Head to Head in the sectional, but that was interpreted  as   "Most head to head wins against sectional opponents".

The tutorial last year said explicitly " Wrestler with the most   head   to head wins against wrestlers in that bracket gets the number #1 seed."   

 

Oh yeah I do remember that coming up.

Phil Cook

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Just so everyone one the same page.

 

From the updated Winter Bulletin. 

Coaches should strive to keep open minds when seeding assignments are being decided. The main objective of
seeding is to have outstanding wrestlers separated in the brackets so that they will not meet each other until the finals. Seeding shall be based upon the wrestler's proven ability and not upon the desire for unwarranted advantage.

Determination of seeded wrestlers is given in order of importance: Varsity contests are the only record submitted for seeding consideration.
a. Head to head competition current year; (The wrestler with the most head to head wins gets the seed. If they
have beaten each other an equal number of times, then the winner of the last match gets the seed. Head to head is counted at any level of interscholastic competition. Matches against teammates are not counted for seeding purposes.);
b. Record against common opponents;
c. Semi‐State quarterfinalist, or higher in previous year IHSAA Tournament Series;
d. Win percentage. A contestant with the best overall record (winning percentage) who has wrestled at least 10
matches; For seeding purposes, forfeits should not be included in a wrestler’s record.
e. Farthest advancement in previous year IHSAA State Tournament Series;
f. Draw by lot. Criteria is reset after determining each seed.
Criteria is reset after determining each seed
NOTE: A wrestler with less than ten matches may not be seeded ahead of a wrestler with at least ten matches and a winning record unless he/she meets criteria in a, b or c. A wrestler with a losing record may not be seeded unless he/she meets criteria a, b or c unless there are less than six (6) wrestlers in the bracket.

A seeded contestant shall have the same opportunity to draw for a bye as other contestants in his bracket.
 

 

Also at the bottom of the document with an included bracket.  

To insure that the number one or number two seeded wrestlers do not receive a bye into the semi‐final round, the first drawn unseeded wrestler must be placed on line 13 and the second drawn unseeded wrestler must be placed on line 4.  

 

The above bracket provides for up to sixteen (16) wrestlers to be placed in the bracket. The potential pigtail matches would be placed by draw after placing the first and second unseeded wrestlers on lines 13 and 4 respectively. There shall be no scoring or advancement points awarded for any result of matches in the round of sixteen. The wrestler simply advances to the round of eight. If a wrestler loses in the round of sixteen, they are eliminated from the tournament.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, MattM said:

Just so everyone one the same page.

 

From the updated Winter Bulletin. 

Coaches should strive to keep open minds when seeding assignments are being decided. The main objective of
seeding is to have outstanding wrestlers separated in the brackets so that they will not meet each other until the finals. Seeding shall be based upon the wrestler's proven ability and not upon the desire for unwarranted advantage.

Determination of seeded wrestlers is given in order of importance: Varsity contests are the only record submitted for seeding consideration.
a. Head to head competition current year; (The wrestler with the most head to head wins gets the seed. If they
have beaten each other an equal number of times, then the winner of the last match gets the seed. Head to head is counted at any level of interscholastic competition. Matches against teammates are not counted for seeding purposes.);
b. Record against common opponents;
c. Semi‐State quarterfinalist, or higher in previous year IHSAA Tournament Series;
d. Win percentage. A contestant with the best overall record (winning percentage) who has wrestled at least 10
matches; For seeding purposes, forfeits should not be included in a wrestler’s record.
e. Farthest advancement in previous year IHSAA State Tournament Series;
f. Draw by lot. Criteria is reset after determining each seed.
Criteria is reset after determining each seed
NOTE: A wrestler with less than ten matches may not be seeded ahead of a wrestler with at least ten matches and a winning record unless he/she meets criteria in a, b or c. A wrestler with a losing record may not be seeded unless he/she meets criteria a, b or c unless there are less than six (6) wrestlers in the bracket.

A seeded contestant shall have the same opportunity to draw for a bye as other contestants in his bracket.
 

 

Also at the bottom of the document with an included bracket.  

To insure that the number one or number two seeded wrestlers do not receive a bye into the semi‐final round, the first drawn unseeded wrestler must be placed on line 13 and the second drawn unseeded wrestler must be placed on line 4.  

 

The above bracket provides for up to sixteen (16) wrestlers to be placed in the bracket. The potential pigtail matches would be placed by draw after placing the first and second unseeded wrestlers on lines 13 and 4 respectively. There shall be no scoring or advancement points awarded for any result of matches in the round of sixteen. The wrestler simply advances to the round of eight. If a wrestler loses in the round of sixteen, they are eliminated from the tournament.

 

 

Thank You Matt

Phil Cook

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2 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Two equal kids if one wrestles a weaker schedule(more forfeits and weaker actual wrestlers) they will have more forfeits, but also a better record to offset those forfeits.

I guess my point is that not counting forfeits doesn't drop your seed, but actually gets your wrestlers closer to people that have wrestled a weaker schedule and a more appropriate seed. 

There are points to be made and I appreciate reading them (hard to get to page 8), but the intentions are made to reward people for not seeking forfeits. The point about dodging athletes has always been there before this rule was put in place. It's been a topic on this board every year.

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8 minutes ago, ehscoach said:

I guess my point is that not counting forfeits doesn't drop your seed, but actually gets your wrestlers closer to people that have wrestled a weaker schedule and a more appropriate seed. 

There are points to be made and I appreciate reading them (hard to get to page 8), but the intentions are made to reward people for not seeking forfeits. The point about dodging athletes has always been there before this rule was put in place. It's been a topic on this board every year.

You equate the number of forfeits with a weak or strong schedule. That is blatantly false and a poor way to determine if a kid wrestles a tough schedule.

I had a kid with 8 forfeits last year, he also wrestled 10 state qualifiers. Per your forfeits = weak schedule he wrestled a weak schedule.

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2 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

You equate the number of forfeits with a weak or strong schedule. That is blatantly false and a poor way to determine if a kid wrestles a tough schedule.

"Two equal kids if one wrestles a weaker schedule(more forfeits and weaker actual wrestlers) they will have more forfeits, but also a better record to offset those forfeits."

That was your actual quote above, not mine. I just think matches wrestled paints a more accurate portrait of who a wrestler is.

 

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Hypothetically a wrestler has been injured and has met the weigh in requirements. He competes the last 2 saturdays before sectional. Is 10-0 defeated a ranked wrestler. but, he has a forfiet. Is he now unseedable? 

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Wrestler A is 15-12 on a tougher schedule with 4 forfeits

Wrestler B 20-8 on a weaker schedule, and has 8 forfeits

Based on common opponents and other factors, both are very equal competitors. Wrestler B gets the seed if it comes down to record.

I can gladly show you plenty of teams and wrestlers who have inflated records that have wrestled people and not received many forfeits. Wrestling a weak schedule doesn't mean they just get forfeits.

 

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11 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Wrestler A is 15-12 on a tougher schedule with 4 forfeits

Wrestler B 20-8 on a weaker schedule, and has 8 forfeits

Based on common opponents and other factors, both are very equal competitors. Wrestler B gets the seed if it comes down to record.

I can gladly show you plenty of teams and wrestlers who have inflated records that have wrestled people and not received many forfeits. Wrestling a weak schedule doesn't mean they just get forfeits.

 

I have no doubt that you can as well as I could. My question is he falls below 10 matches now.

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And please inform me how I address these two scenarios

Scenario 1
I have a lighter weight, who will get a higher rate of forfeits anyway, wrestle against a sectional opponent. It's the first match of five for the day. The sectional opponent forfeits to my kid and then they have a wrestler wrestle the other four matches.

Scenario 2
Wrestling a sectional opponent midway through a five-way. They forfeit to us at three weights in which they had wrestling the previous round. I do not know if the kids wrestled the rest of the day however.

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2 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

And please inform me how I address these two scenarios

Scenario 1
I have a lighter weight, who will get a higher rate of forfeits anyway, wrestle against a sectional opponent. It's the first match of five for the day. The sectional opponent forfeits to my kid and then they have a wrestler wrestle the other four matches.

Scenario 2
Wrestling a sectional opponent midway through a five-way. They forfeit to us at three weights in which they had wrestling the previous round. I do not know if the kids wrestled the rest of the day however.

I can't see any avenue for you here. A coach that would pull a stunt like these will have excuses. Again ETHICS!!!!!

Several years ago I had a sectional opponent weigh in 20 plus kids for a week night dual Didn't send wrestlers to 5 of the weight classes.

Phil Cook

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@ehscoach

@dstruck
@Chris Cooper

Since you can tell which kid has the tougher schedule tell me who has the best schedule of these three

A. 12-3(4 forfeits)
B. 17-9(6 forfeits)
C. 23-6(3 forfeits)

This is a weight class this weekend in a weight that was primarily seeded on record due to lack of common opponents and head to heads.

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1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

And please inform me how I address these two scenarios

Scenario 1
I have a lighter weight, who will get a higher rate of forfeits anyway, wrestle against a sectional opponent. It's the first match of five for the day. The sectional opponent forfeits to my kid and then they have a wrestler wrestle the other four matches.

Scenario 2
Wrestling a sectional opponent midway through a five-way. They forfeit to us at three weights in which they had wrestling the previous round. I do not know if the kids wrestled the rest of the day however.

First....Ask the coach the reason for the forfeit to your kid.

Then...if he is just ducking your kid...Call the coach out on here by name and make it public to those who read this site 

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So wrestling a weaker schedule makes your record better. Regardless of forfeits or not.  Correct. that was the same way before this rule, it’s the same after this rule.  A kid with a tougher schedule may have more losses. That was the same before this rule. It’s the same after this rule.  Forfeits dont show strength of schedule. If true, that is the same before and after this rule. Unethical people existed before this rule and exist after this rule

 

This just stops some getting seeded higher due to having many forfeits as the reason. Yes coaches can dodge. But what about the kid that was never dodged, never was hurt, never missed a match. He was 15-15. That kid was getting out behind someone that was 15-13 with 5 forfeits.

 

this rule simply says compare matches wrestled to matches wrestled 

 

not forfeits to forfeits or strength of forfeit or reason for forfeit

 

no scenario will ever be perfect due to many many reasons- but this is better

 

in 4 years of its changed back can you imagine what people used to the rule will say “can u believe this new rule wants to use forfeits to decide who is better”

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

@ehscoach

@dstruck
@Chris Cooper

Since you can tell which kid has the tougher schedule tell me who has the best schedule of these three

A. 12-3(4 forfeits)
B. 17-9(6 forfeits)
C. 23-6(3 forfeits)

This is a weight class this weekend in a weight that was primarily seeded on record due to lack of common opponents and head to heads.

There is definitely a negative correlation between a kid with a tougher schedule and the number of forfeits he receives.  It’s certainly not an r value of -1, probably more like a -0.6.

That certainly doesn’t mean the kid who wrestles the toughest schedule in the state doesn’t see a lot of forfeits.  I would bet a great deal that Mason Parris gets a ton of forfeits, where as probably any other Lawrenceburg kid with the same schedule has less forfeits.  It also doesn’t mean that a kid with a very weak schedule catches a ton of forfeits either.  But I think on average, a kid with a tougher schedule receives less forfeits than a kid who wrestles a stronger schedule.

No one can look at those numbers above and say who wrestles a tougher schedule.  Give me the team names and I probably could.  I could tell you the teams in our sectional and how their schedule stacks up with the other teams because I am familiar with them.  The debate is, when the only remaining determination of a seed is winning percentage, is it better to only look at the actual matches wrestled, or include the forfeits he has taken.  I say, only the matches wrestled.

 

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4 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

And please inform me how I address these two scenarios

Scenario 1
I have a lighter weight, who will get a higher rate of forfeits anyway, wrestle against a sectional opponent. It's the first match of five for the day. The sectional opponent forfeits to my kid and then they have a wrestler wrestle the other four matches.

Scenario 2
Wrestling a sectional opponent midway through a five-way. They forfeit to us at three weights in which they had wrestling the previous round. I do not know if the kids wrestled the rest of the day however.

Scenario 1 was our kid.  Our varsity kid is 15-6.  He was sick that morning, never showed up, and wrestled 0-5 matches. He was out of school Monday as well. Our back-up 106 pounder weighs 84 to 85 pounds. He wrestled every other match that day including at the time semi-state ranked, and sectional opponent Quinten Dawson from Northrop.  Our kid had a snafu with his body fat percentage papers and was not cleared until literally after our round.  We would have had no problem wrestling your kid, but we were not eligible to.  If you remember I had my laptop with me and was trying to get onto your wifi because my phone wasn't working.  I brought my laptop because I was hoping that the email would come in during the day.  We were able to pick-up the forfeit to Dekalb(which we didn't think we were going to until I got the email), lost by pin to the Eastside wrestler in a dual that we lost on criteria, got pinned in :35 to Dawson, and then lost an 8-7 heartbreaker to an 87 lbs Elkhart Central kid.  Anyhow, if our kid had been eligible we would have wrestled him.  You beat our team 72-9, we wrestled our entire varsity line-up against you and had no problem with your kids beating almost every kid we had, why would I try to duck you with my 84 lbs JV 106?  

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3 minutes ago, buscowrestling said:

Scenario 1 was our kid.  Our varsity kid is 15-6.  He was sick that morning, never showed up, and wrestled 0-5 matches. He was out of school Monday as well. Our back-up 106 pounder weighs 84 to 85 pounds. He wrestled every other match that day including at the time semi-state ranked, and sectional opponent Quinten Dawson from Northrop.  Our kid had a snafu with his body fat percentage papers and was not cleared until literally after our round.  We would have had no problem wrestling your kid, but we were not eligible to.  If you remember I had my laptop with me and was trying to get onto your wifi because my phone wasn't working.  I brought my laptop because I was hoping that the email would come in during the day.  We were able to pick-up the forfeit to Dekalb(which we didn't think we were going to until I got the email), lost by pin to the Eastside wrestler in a dual that we lost on criteria, got pinned in :35 to Dawson, and then lost an 8-7 heartbreaker to an 87 lbs Elkhart Central kid.  Anyhow, if our kid had been eligible we would have wrestled him.  You beat our team 72-9, we wrestled our entire varsity line-up against you and had no problem with your kids beating almost every kid we had, why would I try to duck you with my 84 lbs JV 106?  

But my kid now has a worthless win on his record. That doesn't did him much good when it comes down to seeding that could be the difference in being seeded or not.  Which in turn he could hit a top seed in the pig tail round.

Yet another example of a kid being screwed by a rule you helped put in place.

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3 hours ago, Chris Cooper said:

There is definitely a negative correlation between a kid with a tougher schedule and the number of forfeits he receives.  It’s certainly not an r value of -1, probably more like a -0.6.

That certainly doesn’t mean the kid who wrestles the toughest schedule in the state doesn’t see a lot of forfeits.  I would bet a great deal that Mason Parris gets a ton of forfeits, where as probably any other Lawrenceburg kid with the same schedule has less forfeits.  It also doesn’t mean that a kid with a very weak schedule catches a ton of forfeits either.  But I think on average, a kid with a tougher schedule receives less forfeits than a kid who wrestles a stronger schedule.

No one can look at those numbers above and say who wrestles a tougher schedule.  Give me the team names and I probably could.  I could tell you the teams in our sectional and how their schedule stacks up with the other teams because I am familiar with them.  The debate is, when the only remaining determination of a seed is winning percentage, is it better to only look at the actual matches wrestled, or include the forfeits he has taken.  I say, only the matches wrestled.

 

You have repeatedly said that you are for this because it shows a "strength of schedule." If you can't figure out from those numbers the "strength of schedule" then your support of this new rule is baseless. 

Kids do not need to be punished because another team fails for field a kid in his spot. That is something completely out of their control. I have already shown how one of my kids has two worthless wins on his record because a kid got sick and another had a weight "snafu." Who knows if the other forfeits were because of similar reasons?  I know for a fact for this kid overall record is going to come into play in the seeding meeting. I guess I better hope that the other teams get lots of forfeits and hope that if they don't he doesn't draw the top seed in the pigtail match at sectional.

If you can't see the issues with this new rule then you are blind. 

This is 100% in line with past IHSWCA initiatives that go behind the backs of the membership and get things passed without ANY approval of the members. 

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26 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

You have repeatedly said that you are for this because it shows a "strength of schedule." If you can't figure out from those numbers the "strength of schedule" then your support of this new rule is baseless. 

Kids do not need to be punished because another team fails for field a kid in his spot. That is something completely out of their control. I have already shown how one of my kids has two worthless wins on his record because a kid got sick and another had a weight "snafu." Who knows if the other forfeits were because of similar reasons?  I know for a fact for this kid overall record is going to come into play in the seeding meeting. I guess I better hope that the other teams get lots of forfeits and hope that if they don't he doesn't draw the top seed in the pigtail match at sectional.

If you can't see the issues with this new rule then you are blind. 

This is 100% in line with past IHSWCA initiatives that go behind the backs of the membership and get things passed without ANY approval of the members. 

Oligarchy- same goes/went for sectional realignment.

 

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1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said:

But my kid now has a worthless win on his record. That doesn't did him much good when it comes down to seeding that could be the difference in being seeded or not.  Which in turn he could hit a top seed in the pig tail round.

Yet another example of a kid being screwed by a rule you helped put in place.

I don't know what to tell you other than the fact that I hope your kid doesn't get screwed in the seeding, and that I have brought the placement of unseeded wrestlers up as a topic before on this site. I can tell you that while on the committee I fought for it, and to be honest thought that it had passed.

http://indianamat.com/index.php?/topic/47315-sectionals-placing-the-unseeded-wrestlers/

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7 minutes ago, jets said:

Oligarchy- same goes/went for sectional realignment.

 

To be honest I don't believe that either of these committees where IHSWCA committees, but instead ones that the IHSAA put together.  I know for certain that the sectional realignment that the committee put together ended up being different than what the IHSAA put in place.  When you refer to an oligarchy are you referring to the IHSAA or the IHSWCA?  You know the two are different groups correct?

The discussion can be found here.

 

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5 minutes ago, buscowrestling said:

I don't know what to tell you other than the fact that I hope your kid doesn't get screwed in the seeding, and that I have brought the placement of unseeded wrestlers up as a topic before on this site. I can tell you that while on the committee I fought for it, and to be honest thought that it had passed.

http://indianamat.com/index.php?/topic/47315-sectionals-placing-the-unseeded-wrestlers/

That's splendid that you brought that up, but it does NOTHING to fix the backdoor shenanigans that went on when the IHSWCA got the forfeits don't count approved.

Something that ALL coaches will agree on doesn't get approved, but something that is obviously controversial gets approved. Come on man!

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2 minutes ago, buscowrestling said:

To be honest I don't believe that either of these committees where IHSWCA committees, but instead ones that the IHSAA put together.  I know for certain that the sectional realignment that the committee put together ended up being different than what the IHSAA put in place.  When you refer to an oligarchy are you referring to the IHSAA or the IHSWCA?  You know the two are different groups correct?

The discussion can be found here.

 

Of course I understand the difference between the IHSAA and the Coaches Association. In BOTH instances when I have reached out to Mr Faulkens to question first- the sectional relaignments, and second- the current FF issue being discussed, I was told it was in collaboration with or a direct request of the IHSWCA.

The reference to an Oligarchy is, if the Coaches Association is TRULY suppose to be a representative of the Coaches amongst the State...why wasn't there more information shared with the Coaches when these decisions were being made?? An email survey perhaps? Instead, it's just a few deciding the fate of many- and to me, that seems unjust 

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3 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

That's splendid that you brought that up, but it does NOTHING to fix the backdoor shenanigans that went on when the IHSWCA got the forfeits don't count approved.

Something that ALL coaches will agree on doesn't get approved, but something that is obviously controversial gets approved. Come on man!

What backdoor shenanigans are you talking about?  I am pretty sure it was an IHSAA made the group with the IHSWCA guidance.  Either way I know that the IHSAA called for the meeting and it was held and ran by the IHSAA.  

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