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Seeding Meeting Change???

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7 hours ago, TripleB said:

#SeedingSnowflakes....

 

Sweet Jesus, next people will come up a stupid idea of splitting wrestling up into classes because Tommy deserves a handout bc he goes to CornBread High and it’s not fair to wrestle those big schools.... 

For being tough and manly wrestlers you all can sure be whiners....

So being tough and manly means if someone is doing something that you view as unfair, you just shut up and take it? Don't see a lot of whining here...more exchanging of ideas to try to point out where people are coming form...

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Dustin wrote that while stocking up for snow-mania-Southern indiana 2018, by what he stocked for it, i can tell u he is Messing us! 

 

Galagore: I agree with you in this one. It’s been a good , healthy, conversation-  learning a lot here on views I really didn’t see before hand- good work on keeping it all civil and discussing. 

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Man, I have been out of Indiana wrestling for a while but after finally getting to page six I think I understand why all the fuss.  So the loser of a sectional pig tail match is out of the tournament?  Isn't this the real problem here?  I can't believe there isn't more outrage over that huge flaw in the system if I am understanding this correctly.

To address JMILL and the others who say you should always throw a kid out there to take a beating instead of forfeiting, can you please understand that you don't have the same problems as others do and that maybe a coach has a reason for protecting a kid.  For example, we have a freshman 215lb kid who will eventually be a very good wrestler but weighs around 195 and has 1 year of experience and is clearly not ready to wrestle a returning state qualifier level senior at 215.  He has 1 varsity win and usually does not make it through the first period but fights his butt off and takes his lumps because he is the only option for the team.  I want that kid to continue in the sport.  If I decide to forfeit a match to protect that kid and keep him from getting hurt or completely demoralized and drive him to quit, I think that is more important than your 1 in 8 chance of drawing into a pig tail bracket at sectional or allowing your kid to get 15 takedowns.  The kid is not a snowflake, he is the best lineman on our freshman team.  I feel it is my duty to decide what is best for that kid and his retention in the sport.  You can't expect a kid with 1 year in the sport to think that getting pinned in the first period repeatedly is fun.  He should really be JV but there are matches that kid can compete in at a varsity level, but they probably aren't against a team like Brownsburg.  If that means you get a forfeit, that does stink but it is not the end of the world and it will not cause your kid to quit.  I can't build a program if I can't keep kids like that, but more importantly we shouldn't run kids out of the sport just because we have a hole in our roster.

Edited by doctorWrestling

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16 hours ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Joe  you have a point.    But the reality of the situation is that large programs like Carroll are going to be wrestling big schools with mostly full weight classes, even though you have an occasional anomaly of Penn or Hobart not filling a weight.   Its going to be the small schools that wrestle more small schools that are more likely to not fill weight classes that will have a lot more forfeits, and as a result the small schools will be negatively affected by this new rule.    Probably what will happen, is big schools like Carroll will receive an advantage as a result of the rule change. 

Last year we averaged 3.4 forfeits per kid and this year just over 3.

The kids that worry me are the ones that hover around .500 and are potentially semi-state caliber kids. I have a good idea where they will slot at sectional, but now it looks like they could also be unseeded. Being unseeded means that a kid could draw the top seed in the rat tail round and be done for the season.

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30 minutes ago, doctorWrestling said:

Man, I have been out of Indiana wrestling for a while but after finally getting to page six I think I understand why all the fuss.  So the loser of a sectional pig tail match is out of the tournament?  Isn't this the real problem here?  I can't believe there isn't more outrage over that huge flaw in the system if I am understanding this correctly.

 

If you have more than 8 teams you could run into a five match problem if you have full wrestle-backs. That is why it is that way.

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I guess that makes sense, but couldn't there be an exception made for this case?  I can't see how it is fair to eliminate a kid based on a pigtail match.  Sorry to have to ask this on this thread, but are there many sectionals like this and are there other sectionals with less than 8 that could be rearranged to eliminate the issue?

Edited by doctorWrestling

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The easiest solution is to set up the brackets so no unseeded wrestlers have to wrestle the top seeds first round. This has been done at Sectionals before. Up to 10 teams and nobody has to wrestle a seeded wrestler at all. 11 or 12 teams would only have to face the 6th and 5th seeds, which really sorts out those last seeded spots.

Convince all the head coaches in your sectional that it is the fairest for the wrestlers. Should be easy since it’s very logical. If IHSAA complains, just apologize. (Asking permission from Faulkins before is a roll of the dice for what his answer will be that day)

The only complaint I’ve ever heard is about team score bonus points that first round. Sectional team titles mean a lot less now than they used to with team state. The years when the first round wasn’t scored, my sectional got permission to set up our brackets this way. I’m disappointed it didn’t become a statewide rule. 

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4 minutes ago, GrecoCoach said:

The easiest solution is to set up the brackets so no unseeded wrestlers have to wrestle the top seeds first round. This has been done at Sectionals before. Up to 10 teams and nobody has to wrestle a seeded wrestler at all. 11 or 12 teams would only have to face the 6th and 5th seeds, which really sorts out those last seeded spots.

Convince all the head coaches in your sectional that it is the fairest for the wrestlers. Should be easy since it’s very logical. If IHSAA complains, just apologize. (Asking permission from Faulkins before is a roll of the dice for what his answer will be that day)

The only complaint I’ve ever heard is about team score bonus points that first round. Sectional team titles mean a lot less now than they used to with team state. The years when the first round wasn’t scored, my sectional got permission to set up our brackets this way. I’m disappointed it didn’t become a statewide rule. 

I was about to write a similar comment.  Make pigtails be between non-seeded wrestlers.

And then it would be good for the pigtails (of unseeded wrestlers) to feed into the lower seeded wrestlers.

And then if you did this, you could just not count points in the pigtail matches to eliminate higher seeds complaining about not having equal opportunity for pigtail bonus points.

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3 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

If you have more than 8 teams you could run into a five match problem if you have full wrestle-backs. That is why it is that way.

Just getting creative here and I know would create logistical problems, but here's my idea.   Run a full 16 man bracket, but run the pigtails on Friday night.     Have some preliminary matches and get that round out of the way.   You  eliminate the  potential 6 match problem.  It wouldn't take long, since its sectionals and  teams really aren't driving that far.    Just run one mat and hire one ref, and just get it done. 

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3 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Last year we averaged 3.4 forfeits per kid and this year just over 3.

The kids that worry me are the ones that hover around .500 and are potentially semi-state caliber kids. I have a good idea where they will slot at sectional, but now it looks like they could also be unseeded. Being unseeded means that a kid could draw the top seed in the rat tail round and be done for the season.

Joe, will other schools not also have forfeits? And potentially more?

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27 minutes ago, ehscoach said:

Joe, will other schools not also have forfeits? And potentially more?

Two equal kids if one wrestles a weaker schedule(more forfeits and weaker actual wrestlers) they will have more forfeits, but also a better record to offset those forfeits.

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55 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Just getting creative here and I know would create logistical problems, but here's my idea.   Run a full 16 man bracket, but run the pigtails on Friday night.     Have some preliminary matches and get that round out of the way.   You  eliminate the  potential 6 match problem.  It wouldn't take long, since its sectionals and  teams really aren't driving that far.    Just run one mat and hire one ref, and just get it done. 

I agree that sounds like a nearly ideal way.  Two issues that I see right away.  One may be minor, but the second might be insurmountable.

(1)  Pigtail kids would be making weight two days in a row.  (Maybe Thursday and Saturday?)

(2)  If using on Friday & Saturday, you'd be tying up the "basketball courts" both weekend days.  ?

 

 

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As an aside, way back when I was in school, we called them "rat tail" matches instead of "pig tails".  Pig tails are curled.  Rat tails are straight.

(Yeah, I'm old.)

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5 minutes ago, piscis1956 said:

I agree that sounds like a nearly ideal way.  Two issues that I see right away.  One may be minor, but the second might be insurmountable.

(1)  Pigtail kids would be making weight two days in a row.  (Maybe Thursday and Saturday?)

(2)  If using on Friday & Saturday, you'd be tying up the "basketball courts" both weekend days.  ?

 

 

You hit the nails on the head.  On number 1,  I think a lot of people would go for this because the rest of the field would get a pound allowance on Saturday if wrestled on Friday.

On 2- that's a big logistical problem dealing with basketball   Again flexibility would be key.   How many pigtail matches are there?  At the sectionals Ive gone to its normally less than 10 matches.  I just looked from last year and it only had 5 pigtails.   Flexibility options would be do early like at 4pm before games or do in auxillary gyms.   Even doesn't have to be done at the host site.     Just an idea.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Wrestling Scholar said:

Just getting creative here and I know would create logistical problems, but here's my idea.   Run a full 16 man bracket, but run the pigtails on Friday night.     Have some preliminary matches and get that round out of the way.   You  eliminate the  potential 6 match problem.  It wouldn't take long, since its sectionals and  teams really aren't driving that far.    Just run one mat and hire one ref, and just get it done. 

Thats not the case any longer some schools now travel an hour and half for sectional. Such as New Albany and Floyd Central. We will pass Tell City on the highway going to Jeff. Jeff is 15 minutes from us.

 

Phil Cook

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5 hours ago, doctorWrestling said:

Man, I have been out of Indiana wrestling for a while but after finally getting to page six I think I understand why all the fuss.  So the loser of a sectional pig tail match is out of the tournament?  Isn't this the real problem here?  I can't believe there isn't more outrage over that huge flaw in the system if I am understanding this correctly.

To address JMILL and the others who say you should always throw a kid out there to take a beating instead of forfeiting, can you please understand that you don't have the same problems as others do and that maybe a coach has a reason for protecting a kid.  For example, we have a freshman 215lb kid who will eventually be a very good wrestler but weighs around 195 and has 1 year of experience and is clearly not ready to wrestle a returning state qualifier level senior at 215.  He has 1 varsity win and usually does not make it through the first period but fights his butt off and takes his lumps because he is the only option for the team.  I want that kid to continue in the sport.  If I decide to forfeit a match to protect that kid and keep him from getting hurt or completely demoralized and drive him to quit, I think that is more important than your 1 in 8 chance of drawing into a pig tail bracket at sectional or allowing your kid to get 15 takedowns.  The kid is not a snowflake, he is the best lineman on our freshman team.  I feel it is my duty to decide what is best for that kid and his retention in the sport.  You can't expect a kid with 1 year in the sport to think that getting pinned in the first period repeatedly is fun.  He should really be JV but there are matches that kid can compete in at a varsity level, but they probably aren't against a team like Brownsburg.  If that means you get a forfeit, that does stink but it is not the end of the world and it will not cause your kid to quit.  I can't build a program if I can't keep kids like that, but more importantly we shouldn't run kids out of the sport just because we have a hole in our roster.

I understand your point, but if a kid is going to quit because he got beat by a hammer and he's a first year wrestler...he ain't a kid that is going to fight for your program anyway.  If a coach talks him up, encourages him, tells him the potential he sees...yet he still doesn't want to roll around and get better...well it aint gonna happen.  And you're better off moving on to someone else in the pipeline.

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5 minutes ago, takemtothemat said:

Thats not the case any longer some schools now travel an hour and half for sectional. Such as New Albany and Floyd Central. We will pass Tell City on the highway going to Jeff. Jeff is 15 minutes from us.

 

Phil Cook

That's sad.   And that said part about is this wont change for another 8 years before they do another sectional alignment.

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2 minutes ago, Kookie953 said:

I understand your point, but if a kid is going to quit because he got beat by a hammer and he's a first year wrestler...he ain't a kid that is going to fight for your program anyway.  If a coach talks him up, encourages him, tells him the potential he sees...yet he still doesn't want to roll around and get better...well it aint gonna happen.  And you're better off moving on to someone else in the pipeline.

I couldn't disagree more.  There are tons of kids who don't want to lose every match as freshmen that can be very good wrestlers as juniors or seniors.  I want that kid around to find out what they can become and to give them a chance to be a part of the team.  A big freshman can't be treated like a senior - they are two completely different animals.

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This year and a couple of years to come the Floyd County schools will have to count on that winning percentage for seeding. That is until will can get some of those school on schedual.

 

Phil Cook

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24 minutes ago, piscis1956 said:

I agree that sounds like a nearly ideal way.  Two issues that I see right away.  One may be minor, but the second might be insurmountable.

(1)  Pigtail kids would be making weight two days in a row.  (Maybe Thursday and Saturday?)

(2)  If using on Friday & Saturday, you'd be tying up the "basketball courts" both weekend days.  ?

 

 

There are only at max 28 pig tail matches, with forfeits it's closer to 14 in a ten team field. Having 84 kids make weight and teams travel for virtually nothing is a waste of time.

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3 minutes ago, Fabio Jr. said:

Is it still best winning percentage against sectional opponets as well?

Head to head then common opponent correct?

Phil Cook

Edited by takemtothemat

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15 minutes ago, Fabio Jr. said:

Is it still best winning percentage against sectional opponets as well?

I might have to use my #The County Lawyer status to interpret here,  but remember last year the controversy at a certain sectional.   I think the criteria used was  Head to Head in the sectional, but that was interpreted  as   "Most head to head wins against sectional opponents".

The tutorial last year said explicitly " Wrestler with the most   head   to head wins against wrestlers in that bracket gets the number #1 seed."   

 

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