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decbell1

Seeding Meeting Change???

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And as I said, that's not the wrestler's fault if someone forfeits to them.

as I explained earlier my teams schedule is made by the AD and I haven't been able to change it for 3 years.

we wrestle a team 4 times, and two others 3 times because they happen to be at the same tourneys we are

my 145lber has received forfeits from each of these 3 teams, because none of them have a 145, and one doesn't have a 152 so he couldn't bump (plus I have a 152)

his season record is currently 22-4, with 12 pins and 10 forfeits, hate that this will hurt him for something he can't control 

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4 minutes ago, takemtothemat said:

I'm pretty sure no one see this as a measure of a wrestler. 

 

Again teams with less than full rosters will have a difficult time finding good competition. 

Phil Cook

I totally agree with FF have nothing to do with the quality of a wrestler, and I really am not concerned about seeds.  The main concern I have with restriction on our 18 point usage how are the small schools going to schedule duals.  To me, be a man step on the line smack hands and wrestle. Love to see a 4 seed take out the 1 seed in semis

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My belief: as long as their is wrestling there will be a need for all size schools in tourneys. Just look at the schools this year and even this week looking for another team to join their 6 way. They don’t care how big or small the school is, they want another team.

even in some of the “big school” 6 ways you see 4 large schools and 2 smaller as they want a round that isn’t as intense (giving the kid a round off) or to make the day quicker.

Next year two of your 6 weeknights can be rolled into one so two smaller schools and a big school can go together (at least that is the intent- what people make it to we can’t help)

tournaments are a great way to ensure a smaller school gets included - example- jeff Classic, despite the forfeits I know kids get matches of all size schools- which is my intent in the size variance of schools invited. I believe others do the same

i see where your coming from fellas. I just think and hope it won’t have the backlash perceived by some. I like it for now and look forward to seeing if it improves accurate seeding.

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I think the big problem is that they spring this rule on us with less then two weeks till sectional seeding. If their going to make a change do it before the season starts so we can know what to expect. Also maybe we should add regional qualifier ahead of win percentage. They make all these changes that people are split on but the one that has 100% support, wrestle backs all the way threw the state series, they won't do. I just don't get it.

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As a small New program we are actively seeking tougher competition - we had 1 to 4 FF this season. Depending on the health of our team.  We do not have the luxury of backups at all of our weights.  I will be seeking tougher dual meets next season and if we don’t fill a team this could really effect us.  Why would a perennial tough team with 2 varsity lineups , JV and freshmen team want to wrestle us if we bring 3 FF ?  We typically bring some tough kids too and I hope that will outweigh the FF situation as wins or loses over those tough guys could effect sectionals. 

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9 minutes ago, Trbell said:

Those that say the new rule on FF will have no bearing on smaller schools, I disagree. For example this year I had two different occasions, 7 of my kids received a FF, now I am using 1 of my 18 points permitted and 7 kids are receiving FF. I have to consider how I use my points and get the most out of each point, so if I have 7 FF on two different occasions that is basically throwing two points in the trash since it will not help 7 of my kids with their overall winning percentage.  As all coaches I want mat time and have to utilize my 18 points wisely.

The only solution if this rule is for the long term is to move from 18 points to 20 this will allow a buffer and will allow coaches to keep teams on their schedule that have only 5 to 6 wrestlers.

TRBell,  I agree with you.   But your idea to move to 20 is valid,  but lets weigh that against the IHSAA report that  said we had to many super duals and we need to limit those and move to a few more single duals during the week( not on weekends).   Seems possibly in the future were going to see less points, which goes against your idea.

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8 minutes ago, tskin said:

This went into effect last year.  We did this at our seeding meeting in Jennings last season.

so apparently there were different rules used in different seeding meetings.... well that doesnt seem fair

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My argument has nothing to do with seedings. Schools big or small that don't fill rosters will have a difficult time getting matches in the future. 

 

Phil Cook

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The rules were the same for all seeding meetings- whether rules were followed? That goes backs to the ethics and awareness of coaches and meet directors. 

we used it at ours too

It was evident that people didn’t follow the rules last year so Mr Faulkens sent a reminder. 

Same rules as last year. 

 

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15 minutes ago, tskin said:

This went into effect last year.  We did this at our seeding meeting in Jennings last season.

Of the 28 possible knockout matches you could have had there were only 3. 

 

2 minutes ago, dstruck said:

The rules were the same for all seeding meetings- whether rules were followed? That goes backs to the ethics and awareness of coaches and meet directors. 

we used it at ours too

It was evident that people didn’t follow the rules last year so Mr Faulkens sent a reminder. 

Same rules as last year. 

 

At an 8 team sectional this is less worrisome because your guy that doesn't get seeded doesn't have the opportunity to wrestle the first or second seed in an elimination match to start the day.

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There are so many other criteria's that will take place before you get to winning percentage. The only weight classes where I see this being an issue are your lighter weights, and if there are only 4-6 kids in the weight class, it isn't going to matter. I wonder if teams use this criteria at the conference meets as well.

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33 minutes ago, takemtothemat said:

Again teams with less than full rosters will have a difficult time finding good competition. 

Phil Cook

I agree with this.  But to me, this is just a general statement that doesn't really apply to the issue of using forfeits to determine seeds.  I'm not scheduling a team that has a lot of forfeits because I want my kids to get matches.  

Do you think a coach will decide... hey, I'm not scheduling team xyz anymore because we can't use their forfeits in the seeding meeting?  Maybe someone thinks this way, but it seems crazy to me.

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2 minutes ago, LionsFan said:

There are so many other criteria's that will take place before you get to winning percentage. The only weight classes where I see this being an issue are your lighter weights, and if there are only 4-6 kids in the weight class, it isn't going to matter. I wonder if teams use this criteria at the conference meets as well.

It will affect kids that wrestle tougher schedules and are hovering around .500. It will affect kids that were out due to injuries, sickness, etc. It will affect kids that got down to weight later due to adhering to the weight loss plan.

3 minutes ago, Chris Cooper said:

I agree with this.  But to me, this is just a general statement that doesn't really apply to the issue of using forfeits to determine seeds.  I'm not scheduling a team that has a lot of forfeits because I want my kids to get matches.  

Do you think a coach will decide... hey, I'm not scheduling team xyz anymore because we can't use their forfeits in the seeding meeting?  Maybe someone thinks this way, but it seems crazy to me.

It is already tough for schools with a history of having forfeits to find events, this will make it tougher. 

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4 minutes ago, Chris Cooper said:

I agree with this.  But to me, this is just a general statement that doesn't really apply to the issue of using forfeits to determine seeds.  I'm not scheduling a team that has a lot of forfeits because I want my kids to get matches.  

Do you think a coach will decide... hey, I'm not scheduling team xyz anymore because we can't use their forfeits in the seeding meeting?  Maybe someone thinks this way, but it seems crazy to me.

I do think this will be the mindset of some coaches. Hopefully I'm incorrect. 

Phil Cook

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1 minute ago, Y2CJ41 said:

It will affect kids that wrestle tougher schedules and are hovering around .500. It will affect kids that were out due to injuries, sickness, etc. It will affect kids that got down to weight later due to adhering to the weight loss plan.

 

A wrestler's record will travel with him if he drops a weight class. If wrestler A is 16-8 and 195 and drops to 182, the record still applies. If he doesn't have any forfeits, he will still be 16-8 at 182. If the kids wrestle solid competition all year, it won't matter. I think the bigger issue is drawing the pig tail match blindly, but that is a whole other can of worms.

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3 minutes ago, LionsFan said:

A wrestler's record will travel with him if he drops a weight class. If wrestler A is 16-8 and 195 and drops to 182, the record still applies. If he doesn't have any forfeits, he will still be 16-8 at 182. If the kids wrestle solid competition all year, it won't matter. I think the bigger issue is drawing the pig tail match blindly, but that is a whole other can of worms.

If a wrestler is 15-12 on a good schedule and has 4 forfeits he cannot be seeded unless he has head to head, common opponent, or is a ticket rounder. Thus if he wrestled a decent schedule, missed some key sectional opponent matches, and has no commons, he's thrown into the hopper and hoping he doesn't draw a top seeded guy in a win or go home match.

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2 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

If a wrestler is 15-12 on a good schedule and has 4 forfeits he cannot be seeded unless he has head to head, common opponent, or is a ticket rounder. Thus if he wrestled a decent schedule, missed some key sectional opponent matches, and has no commons, he's thrown into the hopper and hoping he doesn't draw a top seeded guy in a win or go home match.

The only wrestler who could be seeded above your example is a kid that is 12-12 with no forfeits. I think at that point you are splitting hairs. I have seen weight classes in years past where the weight classes were down and wrestlers with losing records earned seeds. Typically wrestlers who are seeded have records that are much better than .500. I think the bigger issue again is the blind draw of the pigtail match.

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3 minutes ago, LionsFan said:

The only wrestler who could be seeded above your example is a kid that is 12-12 with no forfeits. I think at that point you are splitting hairs. I have seen weight classes in years past where the weight classes were down and wrestlers with losing records earned seeds. Typically wrestlers who are seeded have records that are much better than .500. I think the bigger issue again is the blind draw of the pigtail match.

False again, I have up to date records of everyone in our sectional going into this weekend's events. Here are the number of potential SEEDS that are within 3 matches of .500. So if they have 4 or more forfeits they could be in jeopardy of being unseeded.

106- 2 
113- 0
120- 0
126- 3
132- 3
138- 4
145- 3
152- 1
160- 2
170- 3
182- 2
195- 2
220- 1
285- 5
Total- 31 of 84

There are many times where there are no head to heads, commons are the same and neither wrestler has made the ticket round. Remember per the seeding guidelines "A wrestler with a losing record may not be seeded unless he/she meets criteria a, b or c unless there are less than six (6) wrestlers in the bracket." So that means if my wrestler falls under .500 with forfeits taken out then he is thrown into the hopper to potentially wrestle the top seed in a win or go home match.

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30 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

False again, I have up to date records of everyone in our sectional going into this weekend's events. Here are the number of potential SEEDS that are within 3 matches of .500. So if they have 4 or more forfeits they could be in jeopardy of being unseeded.

106- 2 
113- 0
120- 0
126- 3
132- 3
138- 4
145- 3
152- 1
160- 2
170- 3
182- 2
195- 2
220- 1
285- 5
Total- 31 of 84

There are many times where there are no head to heads, commons are the same and neither wrestler has made the ticket round. Remember per the seeding guidelines "A wrestler with a losing record may not be seeded unless he/she meets criteria a, b or c unless there are less than six (6) wrestlers in the bracket." So that means if my wrestler falls under .500 with forfeits taken out then he is thrown into the hopper to potentially wrestle the top seed in a win or go home match.

Joe  you have a point.    But the reality of the situation is that large programs like Carroll are going to be wrestling big schools with mostly full weight classes, even though you have an occasional anomaly of Penn or Hobart not filling a weight.   Its going to be the small schools that wrestle more small schools that are more likely to not fill weight classes that will have a lot more forfeits, and as a result the small schools will be negatively affected by this new rule.    Probably what will happen, is big schools like Carroll will receive an advantage as a result of the rule change. 

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On 1/9/2018 at 11:52 PM, Mattyb said:

If this is the case... I see teams weigh-in kids and then forfeit to studs to preserve records (if the meet is in hand). The good kids lose a win (which results in a lower win percentage). The kid that is dodging loses nothing. 

With this said... if a team weighs-in a kid in or has a kid that is eligible to wrestle and doesn’t send a kid out there, that kid should take the loss on his record and the kid that gets the forfeit should be able to count the win! 

Talk about a can of worms!!! Smh 

That would make the coaches who give kids breaks at super duals due to "injury recovery" grounds to sue.

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6 hours ago, Y2CJ41 said:

It will affect kids that wrestle tougher schedules and are hovering around .500. It will affect kids that were out due to injuries, sickness, etc. It will affect kids that got down to weight later due to adhering to the weight loss plan.

It is already tough for schools with a history of having forfeits to find events, this will make it tougher. 

Shouldn't it be tough to schedule if you forfeit half of your weights or more? If a coach is interested in getting kids competition, i think you avoid the schools who year after year fail to send out even 8 wrestlers. 

I'm not talking about a one or two year anomaly, im referring to schools who year in and year out FF a high number of weights. I sure wouldn't want them on our schedule as a fan or parent.

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why don't we just take the number of team points scored in actual matches.Then divide it by number of actual matches to see which kid has done better 

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#SeedingSnowflakes....

 

Sweet Jesus, next people will come up a stupid idea of splitting wrestling up into classes because Tommy deserves a handout bc he goes to CornBread High and it’s not fair to wrestle those big schools.... 

For being tough and manly wrestlers you all can sure be whiners....

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