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Seeding Meeting Change???

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26 minutes ago, littlevito said:

Seed it however, those programs with the stronger schedules are usually going to get their wrestlers through the sectionals anyways. I see #1 and #2 seeds from teams with weak schedules get put out at Sectionals on a yearly basis.

Why seed at all?

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I can see it now the individuals making the decision are sitting around trying to come up with a productive plan to grow the sport. Here is the agenda:

1. If we approve a two piece uniform this will assist in growing the sport, Great!!! Plan,presto it happens

2. Lets make it mandatory to have 6 week night duals to assist in growing the sport, Great!!! Plan, presto it happens

3. Lets come up with a plan to contradict the first two agenda items, if we wait a week prior to sectionals seeding meetings and send out an email saying all FF will not count towards

overall winning percentage this should do the job in overriding the first two items on our agenda.  It will also assist in killing all  the smaller programs on not being able to schedule a dual and eventually being force to drop wrestling.

With that said, if this is the end goal I understand and the Commissioner and Coaches Association are on target on killing some of the wrestling programs in our state.

 

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1 hour ago, aoberlin said:

Unfortunately with no wrestle backs at the regional level this will change some 3 to 4 seeds and put them against the number 2 person at regionals and end their season. The problem is our system is so fragile without wrestle backs anything and everything messes with it.

 

I think the majority of the time the best wrestlers usually get out of sectionals but this is a great point. Depending on if a wrestler ends up on the top or bottom bracket could determine if he’s a semi state qualifier. 

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Some people could dodge, that’s true. But the competitors bump to and seek out the best competition.

Change scares people.  Me included in many ways. But let’s say this rule was a long standing rule, and then someone came along and said “we are having trouble deciding who is better, let’s see who has the most forfeits and they obviously are better, give them the higher seed” - that wouldn’t make sense at all!

Kids that gets forfeits in a dual....Those kids still get to say they won a dual meet for their team cause they got their hand raised for thr team

Even in an individual tourney if they get their hand raised it counts for the team

Even at sectionals if they get their hand raised in a forfeit it counts for the team

Just when comparing athletes - wrestled matches are what counts. We aren’t taking away or punhsong a kid , just saying “hey, how did you do when you actually wrestled”

Having forfeits when comparing wrestlers will not be what hurts small school wresting.  There are so many other positive things we can do to pump wrestling rather than bank on hoping for forfeits to seed us.

nothing is perfect, nor can it ever be. But comparing kids actual matches wrestled is a lot better then just seeing who got more forfeits and claiming they must be better.

 

 

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Maybe we should add an extra column in the score book called the "dodge column." When a coach chooses not to put an able-bodied wrestler out there, he puts a mark. At the end of the season, the wrestler has the number of "dodge" marks in his weight class deducted from his win total...or added to his loss total...haven't figured which of those I like better.

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The whole purpose of the regular season is to garner record and wins to get seeds at sectional. 

We had two sectional opponents forfeit to us in duals that they had a kid in the lineup earlier or later that day. So now those forfeits in those duals don't mean jack squat and their kid is even more unscathed from it.

You are 100% punishing the kids that step on the mat when teams forfeit to them, ESPECIALLY when they bump away or don't wrestle at all.

Who is going to want to wrestle a school with 5 forfeits now? I know I won't because I want my matches to COUNT towards their records when it comes for seeding.

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33 minutes ago, dstruck said:

Some people could dodge, that’s true. But the competitors bump to and seek out the best competition.

Change scares people.  Me included in many ways. But let’s say this rule was a long standing rule, and then someone came along and said “we are having trouble deciding who is better, let’s see who has the most forfeits and they obviously are better, give them the higher seed” - that wouldn’t make sense at all!

Kids that gets forfeits in a dual....Those kids still get to say they won a dual meet for their team cause they got their hand raised for thr team

Even in an individual tourney if they get their hand raised it counts for the team

Even at sectionals if they get their hand raised in a forfeit it counts for the team

Just when comparing athletes - wrestled matches are what counts. We aren’t taking away or punhsong a kid , just saying “hey, how did you do when you actually wrestled”

Having forfeits when comparing wrestlers will not be what hurts small school wresting.  There are so many other positive things we can do to pump wrestling rather than bank on hoping for forfeits to seed us.

nothing is perfect, nor can it ever be. But comparing kids actual matches wrestled is a lot better then just seeing who got more forfeits and claiming they must be better.

 

 

Like mentioned here a few times now, the teams that struggle year end year out to fill the weight classes will be ignored. Teams with full rosters will choose not to wrestle them. That's what will hurt small rosters. It's not about school size.

Theres no reputable coach that seeks forfeits for his kids. Thats simply selfdestructive.

I've had kids in the past that had several forfiets. I've told you and other coaches in the past do not seed them. Maybe it all comes down to morals.

 

Phil Cook

Edited by takemtothemat

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11 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

The whole purpose of the regular season is to garner record and wins to get seeds at sectional. 

I have never once, nor have any of my kids, ever, ever, equated the purpose of the regular season to garner a record to get seeds at sectionals.

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6 minutes ago, Chris Cooper said:

I have never once, nor have any of my kids, ever, ever, equated the purpose of the regular season to garner a record to get seeds at sectionals.

I'm positive no one would ever accuse you or your wrestlers of that. Your competition clearly shows that.

Phil Cook

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13 minutes ago, Chris Cooper said:

I have never once, nor have any of my kids, ever, ever, equated the purpose of the regular season to garner a record to get seeds at sectionals.

Then take the winning percentage out of seeding. That's what you are wanting to do anyways. 

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forfeits do not tell you who the better wrestler is.

I get the scare of the new, and how it might be perceived it could hurt someone.   I completly respect the opinion, but hope that people will give it an open minded try, as I think there are more positives then negatives.  The only reason rules are made in the first place is because someone was trying to manipulate something.   The intent to hurt is not there.  The likelihood of it helping more kids is definitely there.  The possibility of a coach minipulating a rule to his advantage is always there - no matter what way it goes. 

Instead of talking and comparing the actual wins and losses, maybe we should discuss and compare the quality of forfeits? My forfeits are better than your forfeits? (just joking)

In no other sport would you use a forfeit to seed someone, just think of the NCAA basketball tourney seeding based on games not actually played.  "well, we didnt play duke, but could have, and didnt, so that is a win, seed me higher than them."

It does come down to morals - people were dodging people before this rule came about - they will dodge kids with this rule and they will dodge kids without this rule.  this rule has nothing to do with dodging.  If a kid and coach want competition, they will seek competition.  If they want to avoid, they will. Schools that actually sought out forfeits to make their record look better will remain - their record is their record.  The larger schools will wrestle the smaller schools at the same rate they already do - cause forfeits won't count and now coaches will possibly actually want that match to happen.  We can never stop people avoiding matches, we can never stop teams with tougher or weaker schedules.  Although i wish all schools in Indiana were the exact same size - we can't control that either.  

But what we can do is compare actual wrestled matches to actual wrestled matches.  Not an actual wrestled match to a ghost match.

I can't speak for others, but I know ill keep schools I need for sectional seeding cause i want the actual head to head match wrestled.  the forfeits in their lineup have nothing to do with us wanting the head to head competion.  Ill keep inviting all sizes of school to jeff classic because I want to see our smaller schools have that platform.  Ill keep doing battle of the bridge and including smaller schools because I want their kids to grow too and have opportunities too.  We can't stop coaches that dont or wont seek competition.  We can help comparing actual matches.

if forfeits actually showed the strength of a wrestler, on the results page we should start writing - Freddie had 4 quality forfeits today in his tourney. (again just kidding)

forfeits do not tell you who the better wrestler is.

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5 minutes ago, Y2CJ41 said:

Then take the winning percentage out of seeding. That's what you are wanting to do anyways. 

So you don't think this is applicable to the seeding criteria of "total wins against sectional opponents"?

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10 minutes ago, dstruck said:

forfeits do not tell you who the better wrestler is.

I get the scare of the new, and how it might be perceived it could hurt someone.   I completly respect the opinion, but hope that people will give it an open minded try, as I think there are more positives then negatives.  The only reason rules are made in the first place is because someone was trying to manipulate something.   The intent to hurt is not there.  The likelihood of it helping more kids is definitely there.  The possibility of a coach minipulating a rule to his advantage is always there - no matter what way it goes. 

Instead of talking and comparing the actual wins and losses, maybe we should discuss and compare the quality of forfeits? My forfeits are better than your forfeits? (just joking)

In no other sport would you use a forfeit to seed someone, just think of the NCAA basketball tourney seeding based on games not actually played.  "well, we didnt play duke, but could have, and didnt, so that is a win, seed me higher than them."

It does come down to morals - people were dodging people before this rule came about - they will dodge kids with this rule and they will dodge kids without this rule.  this rule has nothing to do with dodging.  If a kid and coach want competition, they will seek competition.  If they want to avoid, they will. Schools that actually sought out forfeits to make their record look better will remain - their record is their record.  The larger schools will wrestle the smaller schools at the same rate they already do - cause forfeits won't count and now coaches will possibly actually want that match to happen.  We can never stop people avoiding matches, we can never stop teams with tougher or weaker schedules.  Although i wish all schools in Indiana were the exact same size - we can't control that either.  

But what we can do is compare actual wrestled matches to actual wrestled matches.  Not an actual wrestled match to a ghost match.

I can't speak for others, but I know ill keep schools I need for sectional seeding cause i want the actual head to head match wrestled.  the forfeits in their lineup have nothing to do with us wanting the head to head competion.  Ill keep inviting all sizes of school to jeff classic because I want to see our smaller schools have that platform.  Ill keep doing battle of the bridge and including smaller schools because I want their kids to grow too and have opportunities too.  We can't stop coaches that dont or wont seek competition.  We can help comparing actual matches.

if forfeits actually showed the strength of a wrestler, on the results page we should start writing - Freddie had 4 quality forfeits today in his tourney. (again just kidding)

forfeits do not tell you who the better wrestler is.

What other sport uses forfeits at all? If you have Duke on your schedule, and you choose not to play them, then you forfeit the game and it goes in the books as an official loss.

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6 minutes ago, dstruck said:

In no other sport would you use a forfeit to seed someone, just think of the NCAA basketball tourney seeding based on games not actually played.  "well, we didnt play duke, but could have, and didnt, so that is a win, seed me higher than them."

No but if IU plays Duke and Duke has some sick players you bet the win counts.

I can see some basic reasoning behind throwing the forfeits out but I just don't think it works well with how our system is currently setup.  Then make the win percentage further down the list of criteria.

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19 minutes ago, dstruck said:

correct, most other sports dont use forfeits, as they think it is silly

But you agree that in other sports if, in fact, you forfeit...it counts...and it counts in every sense that any other loss counts...right?

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Number of forfeits on a kid's record does not indicate a strength of schedule. Last year I had a kid with 8 forfeits and he wrestled 10 state qualifiers and probably another 10+ that were at semi-state. But according to everyone he had a weak schedule because he had 8 forfeits.

Let's also pretend a person heavily involved with the IHSWCA did the following.

Knowing ahead of time about this change, they wrestle a sectional opponent and for whatever reason have their backup in the lineup that day. The wrestlers at this weight are equal competitors so record could be very important in the seeding process. So instead of wrestling their backup against the sectional opponent, they choose to forfeit and thus possibly helping their starter have a better record since the forfeit doesn't count for anything. The rest of the day the backup wrestles just fine...explain that please.

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1 minute ago, dstruck said:

I completely agree with that statement joe. 

Then you should also agree that wrestling a tougher schedule will put your kids at a disadvantage if they aren't top tier kids. My kids that are at or above .500 and have a few forfeits could get screwed because of this. I absolutely know of one already and a couple others that depending upon this weekend's results could be affected also.

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Galagore- I agree with that- it would count and it does count in a dual meet. Just not when saying who the better teams is.  

 

Originally seeding meetings were were just plain- “hey guys who is better” and it was talked out.  Rules were made for dishonesty , for those that had trouble compromising, and for flat out “we don’t know”.   

 

The intent of the seeding meeting is to have people try and come to a conclusion on who the best wrestler is. Not just a stat. Thus not using forfeits to compare individuals.

 

so the forfeit still counts- for a win, for team points- for glory and honor- just not in a discussion of how good a wrestler is

 

in my opinion of course

 

This topic interests me more than most, as seen by my number of responses- as I really had no idea anyone would disagree with it.... I thought most would go “yeah, forfeits don’t show who is better” so it’s been interesting finding out that this isn’t the case. Interesting to see how many see forfeits as a measure of the wrestler.

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Joe-

i agree how it could be seen that kids are at a disadvantage - but that isn’t my reality at least.  Wrestling a tougher schedule will Still produce tougher wrestlers that despite a seed will march forward in the tourney.  

I believe the real intent of ethical coaches is put their kids up against tough or worthy competition to continually grow the wrestler.

 

if someone weakens their schedule to manipulate this rule- it will bite them at some point- that kid with a great record (lots of wins, low forfeits, but lesser competition) won’t go as far.

i think many people do their kids a disservice by getting their kids overseesed and the kid falling short and feel a failure. First, I’d love an accurate seed. But other than that i like when a kid overcomes their seed and feels good about themselves.  I feel many kids got overseeded due to forfeits and left feeling real discouraged and just don’t understand that actual competition would have grown them.

 

 

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1 minute ago, dstruck said:

Joe-

i agree how it could be seen that kids are at a disadvantage - but that isn’t my reality at least.  Wrestling a tougher schedule will Still produce tougher wrestlers that despite a seed will march forward in the tourney.  

I believe the real intent of ethical coaches is put their kids up against tough or worthy competition to continually grow the wrestler.

 

if someone weakens their schedule to manipulate this rule- it will bite them at some point- that kid with a great record (lots of wins, low forfeits, but lesser competition) won’t go as far.

i think many people do their kids a disservice by getting their kids overseesed and the kid falling short and feel a failure. First, I’d love an accurate seed. But other than that i like when a kid overcomes their seed and feels good about themselves.  I feel many kids got overseeded due to forfeits and left feeling real discouraged and just don’t understand that actual competition would have grown them.

 

 

My kid will get thrown into the hopper and could wrestle the #1 seed in a rat tail when he might have earned a 5 or 6 seed. That's not how it should be.

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Those that say the new rule on FF will have no bearing on smaller schools, I disagree. For example this year I had two different occasions, 7 of my kids received a FF, now I am using 1 of my 18 points permitted and 7 kids are receiving FF. I have to consider how I use my points and get the most out of each point, so if I have 7 FF on two different occasions that is basically throwing two points in the trash since it will not help 7 of my kids with their overall winning percentage.  As all coaches I want mat time and have to utilize my 18 points wisely.

The only solution if this rule is for the long term is to move from 18 points to 20 this will allow a buffer and will allow coaches to keep teams on their schedule that have only 5 to 6 wrestlers.

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2 minutes ago, dstruck said:

Galagore- I agree with that- it would count and it does count in a dual meet. Just not when saying who the better teams is.  

 

Originally seeding meetings were were just plain- “hey guys who is better” and it was talked out.  Rules were made for dishonesty , for those that had trouble compromising, and for flat out “we don’t know”.   

 

The intent of the seeding meeting is to have people try and come to a conclusion on who the best wrestler is. Not just a stat. Thus not using forfeits to compare individuals.

 

so the forfeit still counts- for a win, for team points- for glory and honor- just not in a discussion of how good a wrestler is

 

in my opinion of course

 

This topic interests me more than most, as seen by my number of responses- as I really had no idea anyone would disagree with it.... I thought most would go “yeah, forfeits don’t show who is better” so it’s been interesting finding out that this isn’t the case. Interesting to see how many see forfeits as a measure of the wrestler.

I'm pretty sure no one see this as a measure of a wrestler. 

 

4 minutes ago, dstruck said:

Joe-

i agree how it could be seen that kids are at a disadvantage - but that isn’t my reality at least.  Wrestling a tougher schedule will Still produce tougher wrestlers that despite a seed will march forward in the tourney.  

I believe the real intent of ethical coaches is put their kids up against tough or worthy competition to continually grow the wrestler.

 

if someone weakens their schedule to manipulate this rule- it will bite them at some point- that kid with a great record (lots of wins, low forfeits, but lesser competition) won’t go as far.

i think many people do their kids a disservice by getting their kids overseesed and the kid falling short and feel a failure. First, I’d love an accurate seed. But other than that i like when a kid overcomes their seed and feels good about themselves.  I feel many kids got overseeded due to forfeits and left feeling real discouraged and just don’t understand that actual competition would have grown them.

 

 

Again teams with less than full rosters will have a difficult time finding good competition. 

Phil Cook

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