AJ Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 minute ago, aoberlin said: Honestly they have stated this many many times. They only care about crowning a State Champion so really we should just do away with seed meeting and go Connersville on this thing. Connersville is a secret bracket... no need to go that far.... aoberlin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Y2CJ41 said: Fat fingers, the other kid is 14-6 currently. We could have had a head to head, but he didn't wrestle us. Now my kid gets punished. Even if they have the same record that forfeit burns my kid. Two kids similar records, one didn't wrestle us when we presented him. My kid is being punished because he drew forfeits against teams like Penn, Elkhart Memorial, Hobart, etc. There are way more scenarios of a kid getting screwed by this than one having 10+ forfeits and snagging seeds. That's more of an anomaly Joe of having top tier programs giving up forfeits. I don't know from personal experience, but I think some less accoladed teams competing at high level marquis events where top tier schools like Carroll and Penn compete would find a way to fill their lineups, given they got a chance to compete against these teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 27 minutes ago, Wrestling Scholar said: That's more of an anomaly Joe of having top tier programs giving up forfeits. I don't know from personal experience, but I think some less accoladed teams competing at high level marquis events where top tier schools like Carroll and Penn compete would find a way to fill their lineups, given they got a chance to compete against these teams. Finding a way to fill a line-up is much easier said than done. Especially if you want to hold any kind of high standards and have any kind of expectations. Coach McCormick and kenm 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fearless fly Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 10 hours ago, Numchuck Skills said: My mom was mad about all the forfeits I had.... She says hi, but is not quick enough to smack kevin. glad she sayed hi and I sure is glad she missed Kevins purty face(its still purty aint it ?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takemtothemat Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 (edited) I have coached against other coaches that I know would not and did not wrestle against my kids. Giving us a forfeit. They did so to eliminate head to head for seeding purpose come sectional time. This rule will allow those coaches and others like them to do this even more. Now you prevent your kid from an L and Take a W from the other kid for seeding purpose. This will happen without a doubt. Like mentioned else where on this thread teams that have a less than full squad year end year out will have a difficult time picking up matches. Someone said something about pushing coaches to recruit more. ( Not sure what coach doesn't encourage kids to come out for their team). What will happen in the near future with teams that are riddled with forfeits will be wrestling each other. Therefore, hurting the smaller squads further at any and all seeding meetings. Phil Cook Edited January 11, 2018 by takemtothemat Coach Masters, Coach McCormick, randalllynch and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fearless fly Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 11 minutes ago, takemtothemat said: I have coached against other coaches that I know would not and did not wrestle against my kids. Giving us a forfeit. They did so to eliminate head to head for seeding purpose come sectional time. This rule will allow those coaches and others like them to do this even more. Now you prevent your kid from an L and Take a W from the other kid for seeding purpose. This will happen without a doubt. Like mentioned else where on this thread teams that have a less than full squad year end year out will have a difficult time picking up matches. Someone said something about pushing coaches to recruit more. ( Not sure what coach doesn't encourage kids to come out for their team). What will happen in the near future with team teams that are riddled with forfeits will be wrestling each other. Therefore, hurting the smaller squads further at any and all seeding meetings. Phil Cook I agree....some coaches are &$%?,(@;;0$;.^%%>ers ff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor83 Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 8 hours ago, mikemorgan said: So punishing wrestlers that made weight that can’t control if their opponent sends someone out. I’ve seen multiple times this year where a team forfeited to a kid even though they had a wrestler in that weight. We have seen this as well. Wrestlers now get punished to a degree for wrestlers dodging them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numchuck Skills Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 9 hours ago, Chris Cooper said: Mike- You're not punishing that kid at all. He still gets the win, still gets his hand raised, still gets the team points, etc. In the long road though. No match no experience gained, plus not a good seed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numchuck Skills Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 2 hours ago, fearless fly said: glad she sayed hi and I sure is glad she missed Kevins purty face(its still purty aint it ?) WEEELLLLL I wouldn't exactly say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numchuck Skills Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 This is almost as bad as Brad's wife getting fired. #bringbackbradswife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cm113 Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 On another side of this, I think losses where someone wrestled up a weight class should not be counted either. Over half of my losses this season are from wrestling up to 126 from 120, and I shouldn’t be punished for the other team not having a 120. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlevito Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 12 hours ago, bulldog145 said: Simple Solution: Don't count forfeits for team score. Only count matches wrestled. That way a team with 5 guys has a chance to win a dual meet? Maybe we shouldn't ever have dual meets anymore to get rid of forfeits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSego Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 11 hours ago, NSego said: Currently, our team averages 3.6 forfeits per varsity wrestler. We have wrestled a team this year with 2 kids on it and a team with 3 kids.... I just updated the stats and added this past weekend's results, we are up to 4.1 forfeits per varsity wrestler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Could this be a resonse to Max Faulkens controversial seeding interpretation from last year at seeding meetings. To refresh eveybodies memory, his interpretation as somewhat explicitly written in the iHSAA guidelines, was wins against wrestlers in the bracket ranked higher than a direct wins in bracket. For example, say wrestler A had a win over wrestler B. But wrestlers A had bracket record of 2 -0, but wrestler B had 3-1, then wrestler B should get the higher seed. Well, thats where this new interpretation is relavant. They maybe want to insure sectional team forfeits dont count as wins in the sectional record when applying the interpretation above. In this case, i agree you shouldnt apply the forfeit as a sectional win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog145 Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 9 hours ago, littlevito said: That way a team with 5 guys has a chance to win a dual meet? Maybe we shouldn't ever have dual meets anymore to get rid of forfeits. It eliminates the forfeit issue as whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpt189 Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 It's not the wrestlers fault in most cases. The wrestlers, and in some cases including mine, the coach doesn't make the schedule. My AD finds our tourneys. We have wrestled in only two tourneys this year where at least one team filled all 14 weights. Not the wrestler's fault that other teams don't have kids in their weight at a tourney or dual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 On 1/10/2018 at 6:22 AM, Chris Cooper said: The example I gave isn’t fictional, at least the part about the 16 forfeits. If anyone gets “penalized” at a seed meeting it’s the kid who wrestles the toughest schedule. It’s not like the kid with all the forfeits has to sit the tournament out, he just won’t be seeded based off of his forfeits alone. If one criteria to separate kids is winning percentage, it seems logical that strength of schedule should play a part. While it is diffficult to measure strength of schedule, it is easy to see and count forfeits. The strength of schedule angle is weak as it will hurt teams that wrestle a good schedule. If you have a kid around .500 that wrestles a good schedule and has wrestled a lot of good competition then a few forfeits could put him under .500 and not be seedable by record. This then becomes tricky if you have a sectional where teams don't see eachother. The teams that wrestle a weaker schedule will already have inflated records where they will be punished only if they have an exorbitant amount of forfeits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Shouldn't every coaches goal be to dual against sectional opponents? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlevito Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 11 minutes ago, TripleB said: Shouldn't every coaches goal be to dual against sectional opponents? That could weaken some teams schedules. Most programs would rather seek out the better competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSego Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 33 minutes ago, TripleB said: Shouldn't every coaches goal be to dual against sectional opponents? We switched Sectionals this year, so it'll take a few years before we can get a dual meet with all of our sectional Schools. Coach Masters 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exactly126 Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 I look at this differently. I think forfeits should be given more points. In tournaments 2.5 points and duals 7 points. this will award the better "team", and help curb dodging. If the coach still finds it a good idea to avoid a match, they could use an injury default. This might eliminate a few forfeits But still count forfeits in seeding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 1 hour ago, littlevito said: That could weaken some teams schedules. Most programs would rather seek out the better competition. Then those programs can't complain about sectional seeding, #SeedingSnowFlakes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlevito Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 1 minute ago, TripleB said: Then those programs can't complain about sectional seeding, #SeedingSnowFlakes Seed it however, those programs with the stronger schedules are usually going to get their wrestlers through the sectionals anyways. I see #1 and #2 seeds from teams with weak schedules get put out at Sectionals on a yearly basis. Old School H 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aoberlin Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Unfortunately with no wrestle backs at the regional level this will change some 3 to 4 seeds and put them against the number 2 person at regionals and end their season. The problem is our system is so fragile without wrestle backs anything and everything messes with it. Russian and Wrestling Shoe 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 17 minutes ago, littlevito said: Seed it however, those programs with the stronger schedules are usually going to get their wrestlers through the sectionals anyways. I see #1 and #2 seeds from teams with weak schedules get put out at Sectionals on a yearly basis. Ahhhhh, now we are in the same boat!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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