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Ktony113

Too many takedowns(?)

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This past Saturday at the New Haven Bill Kerbel Invitational, a local senior wrestler was well on his way to a 30-15 tech fall victory when the ref suddenly stopped the match and gave said wrestler (and coach) a warning that another takedown and escape would warrant a penalty point against them for unsportsmanlike conduct.  The wrestler responded by taking his opponent down and turning him for the pin.  While I understand that they may be trying to save some face for the other kid, I'm just curious as to whether there are rules in place that the ref was enforcing, or did he take it upon himself to try and help the kid get off the mat with a little more dignity intact.  The kid that was scoring the takedowns is chasing the single season takedown record, which will be kind of hard to accomplish when you're limited to a handful per match.  How many takedowns is too many?  Should they have stopped Escobedo in his state title matches back in the day?  It Should'nt be a crime to be smooth on your feet!

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Posted (edited)

What's the point of humiliating a clearly outmatched opponent like that?  No, it shouldn't be a crime to be smooth on your feet, but quit padding stats and just pin those kids that are that overmatched.

Edited by MD92

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15 minutes ago, Ktony113 said:

This past Saturday at the New Haven Bill Kerbel Invitational, a local senior wrestler was well on his way to a 30-15 tech fall victory when the ref suddenly stopped the match and gave said wrestler (and coach) a warning that another takedown and escape would warrant a penalty point against them for unsportsmanlike conduct.  The wrestler responded by taking his opponent down and turning him for the pin.  While I understand that they may be trying to save some face for the other kid, I'm just curious as to whether there are rules in place that the ref was enforcing, or did he take it upon himself to try and help the kid get off the mat with a little more dignity intact.  The kid that was scoring the takedowns is chasing the single season takedown record, which will be kind of hard to accomplish when you're limited to a handful per match.  How many takedowns is too many?  Should they have stopped Escobedo in his state title matches back in the day?  It Should'nt be a crime to be smooth on your feet!

I think anyone who has been around wrestling long enough including refs know when someone can take the kid down and pin him because he is a complete fish.o r if he is doing it because it is his best chance to score points and win the match against a decent opponent.

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15 minutes ago, Ktony113 said:

This past Saturday at the New Haven Bill Kerbel Invitational, a local senior wrestler was well on his way to a 30-15 tech fall victory when the ref suddenly stopped the match and gave said wrestler (and coach) a warning that another takedown and escape would warrant a penalty point against them for unsportsmanlike conduct.  The wrestler responded by taking his opponent down and turning him for the pin.  While I understand that they may be trying to save some face for the other kid, I'm just curious as to whether there are rules in place that the ref was enforcing, or did he take it upon himself to try and help the kid get off the mat with a little more dignity intact.  The kid that was scoring the takedowns is chasing the single season takedown record, which will be kind of hard to accomplish when you're limited to a handful per match.  How many takedowns is too many?  Should they have stopped Escobedo in his state title matches back in the day?  It Should'nt be a crime to be smooth on your feet!

 

1 minute ago, Hornet Coach said:

it is unsportsmanlike to let a kid up directly from his back.  

The wrestler in control probably did just that . idk. 

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Theres no rule,   but their is a rule where the  official does have the discretion to judge if a wrestler is treating an opponent in an unsportsmanlike manner.   The TD record would be cool,   but I mentioned this  in another post, the record got tainted because some guy like you described  wanted  to  pad stats against a weaker opponent.   In perspective sometimes it looks bad.

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12 minutes ago, MD92 said:

What's the point of humiliating a clearly outmatched opponent like that?  No, it shouldn't be a crime to be smooth on your feet, but quit padding stats and just pin those kids that are that overmatched.

Isn't it humiliating to get pinned in 10 seconds?  

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I was hypothesizing.   I came up with the most takedowns in a match when just letting your opponent up and down would be 15.   Assuming you your chose top or opponent chose down as start of 2nd period, you score would be 30 -to 15 when you got the tech.   So say you're really serious about the record.     Your dominating a match against a fish, but you want to maximize your takedowns.   Would it be wrong to let your opponent (Freddy Fish)  take you down intentionally a few times, add in a few locked hands or maybe give an intentional reversal at the end of the 1st period, or even go really risky and give up a nearfall.   Is there any coaches out there that would let their wrestler get intentionally scored on.

 

Also,   it made me wonder whats the most takedowns ever in a single match?  I bet theres some crazy match where a guy got caught early and then came back with 20 takedowns.

 

 

     

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Absurd the kid went out to wrestle and he wrestled if the guy was cutting him and getting takedowns so be it as long as it's not letting the kid off of his back which is a violation this should not ever be a warning given to a wrestler 

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I guess I just don't see the point in a takedown record at all. If you're the superior wrestler, go for the most team points and get the fall. If you can't pin them, tech fall them as quickly as possible. Cutting from the back (illegal), purposely giving up points, etc. is just poor sportsmanship and benefits nobody.

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I think it only becomes a problem when one Wrestler is clearly superior to the other. If that is the only way you can win then do it but if you can pin a kid no one wants to see you get 15 takedowns

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1 hour ago, grappleapple said:

I guess I just don't see the point in a takedown record at all. If you're the superior wrestler, go for the most team points and get the fall. If you can't pin them, tech fall them as quickly as possible. Cutting from the back (illegal), purposely giving up points, etc. is just poor sportsmanship and benefits nobody.

When I wrestled I kind of liked what my coach did. He would only give you a max of 5 in a match if your opponent wasn't a regional qualifier or higher(it was harder to qualify for regional because they only took top 2) but if it was then obviously all of them would count.he had to wait and count them all up at the end of the season to see who qualified. 

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Breaking records by scoring a bunch of points on non skilled wrestlers is lame.  I do believe in 2 or 3 takedowns in the first period and then going for the pin.  So the good kid can get loosened up and gets some mat time. 

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I see no problem in a takedown/cut situation. It’s not the better wrestlers fault that he is indeed the better wrestler, I look at it as a drill match. I’m sure they both had to cut weight, what’s the point of cutting weight for a 10 second pin. We challenge our kids to get as many takedowns they can in a match, no matter who the opponent is. I guess I have a different mindset since that’s what we did in my days at Portage. Just my opinion. 

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I remember my freshman year our 103 pounder was a first year, under 80 pounds going up against a semi-state quality kid and watched him get take down with ease over and over and over again, even getting warned for letting him up while on his back. I couldn’t understand why he wouldn’t just finish it off early.

I get that it can be nice to rack up takedowns sometimes, and no I don’t think there should be any rule stating that you can’t do it, but I think it just looks so bush league for someone to go out there and score 10 takedowns in the first period on somebody clearly outmatched when they could just finish the match in literally 20 seconds.

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5 hours ago, Hornet Coach said:

it is unsportsmanlike to let a kid up directly from his back.  

Not the case this time. Cutting a kid directly from his back has always been penalized for as long as I can remember, and there usually isn't a warning.  The match was early in the second period or so and the wrestler had scored 10 takedowns.  The ref decided that 10 was enough and didn't want to see any more I guess.

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I'm never going to get mad at someone doing that to any of my kids. If you don't want to see that don't wrestle the kid once he steps on the mat it's go time as long as they are following the rules. If you think that kid can't handle that don't wrestle him

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I always used the rule of thumb that if they are a regional kid or better fair game. If not then limit to 5 takedowns and finish the match.

There is risk for the better kid to get "caught" or hurt the longer a match goes, so advantage less experienced kid. I've seen refs call quick pins for the less experienced kid, it in the past.

Kyle used to get hit with taunting all the time, mainly during cutting because he worked the kid up. If the kid wouldn't get up he would hand fight (their head) or push them out of the circle. We always used it as a way of breaking a kid. With the theory if you take them down, cut, and repeat they get frustrated. Then during 2nd & 3rd periods ride the kid a little longer (to make them feel they are having some success defending being turned), then cut and take them down. They are typically done after that and break, leading to the pin. I have watched this method work over and over.

My opinion is that we are talking Penn State verses Iowa. Penn State works you till you break and Iowa grinds you till you break. Problems grinders run into is that kids today have mad scrambling skills, a 2-3 point lead can change fast.

I have always taught if you can take someone down and escape from anyone, you shouldn't lose a match. Others are big time riders and down right nasty from top. So, when is to many tilts considered taunting.

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23 minutes ago, Fabio Jr. said:

I'm never going to get mad at someone doing that to any of my kids. If you don't want to see that don't wrestle the kid once he steps on the mat it's go time as long as they are following the rules. If you think that kid can't handle that don't wrestle him

I would never get mad at it either. Now if you are overly physical with a kid that isn’t in your league then we may have an issue. I am all about intensity but sportsmanship is even more important to instill in your athletes. I wouldn’t probably say anything to the kid unless I had a relationship with them but I may bring it up to their coach and if he doesn’t like we can wrestle to see who is right.

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I remember TeamGarcia saying this not too long ago, and I can't quote it directly but it was something along the lines of '' I'm not driving an hour to see you pin a kid in 10 seconds". This would apply here, because if anything, it's mat time for both wrestlers.

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