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cradleU

Juniior Duals (Greco - FreeStyle)

31 posts in this topic

Results are on TrackWrestling with videos if you want to pony up the money.

Greco got 16th, looks like they were just using the tournament to get matches in to get a 4lbs allowance for freestyle. Other than a couple weights with only one competitor everyone else only got a few matches.

Freestyle is still going strong, the A-Team is going for 17-24th. They were seeded 11th and lost on tiebreaker to unseeded Georgia. The B-Team is going for 33-36th, but they are there for developmental purposes.

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Seems like our freestyle and Greco national dual teams took it on the chin (all age groups). It seems that we can compete with the big dogs in folkstyle (closing the gap). Not sure what is up with the other two styles. Hate to see this.

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It seems to me that our team, while solid in spots, is not made up of our best; and in some cases, it's nowhere near our best.   Just one man's opinion.

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A lot of it comes down to the core things people have an issue with. Cost being the main one. I think we could do a better job of promoting the actual team. I know we got a list of the selected jrs but I don't think we ever got a solid look at the actual team we sent until they were there and put in. I have actually came around to Freestyle in the last couple of years but I think we need to do whatever we can to make it easier for our HAMMERS the Lees, (Brayton, Joe, and Nick), Mason etc to wrestle

this was a possible line up

100: Tolin

106: Morin

113: Vidaya, Watts, Curtis

120 Rooks, Triana, Poynter

126 Either Rooks Brother 

132 Mulkey or Rooks

138 Nick Lee

145 Sellmer or MacinTosh 

152 B Lee

160 J Lee

170 Webster

182 Lucas Davison , Dull

195 A Davioson, L Davison

220 Parris, Pokorney

285 Pokorney , Parris

 

Thats a real solid line up. And Id be curious to hear why some of these studs didnt go (even though its 100% a personal decision.)

 

As for the cost aspect there needs to be some compromises some of these parents spend thousands a year and need any help they can get to make it financially feasible. for example a cheaper price if the wrestler foregoes the camp and gets their own travel/board no need they should have to pay 1100 bucks for that. (The argument of its always been that way is null and void). Im venting a little but its disappointing to see the state of our duals team.

 

I also want to say this isnt a "shot" at anyone or even the ISWA This is an offer of an olive branch at least from me to try and figure out what we can do to improve our kids chances in the international styles. I really became enamored with it watching my boy B Lee take the world by Storm at the Jr. Trials

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Cost and Time are the big two i think ,but we would have went regardless. Brayden missed state due to some personal issues so we did not qualify and were not asked. Others i know had SAT's the weekend of state so again would not qualify. On another note some kids are just warn out from the season and taking breaks. Loved Schoolboy Duals when he was that age can't imagine this being much different, but then again he did not have a high school season before doing Freestyle/Greco.    

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Wow that line up FABIO put together is only like 25 wrestlers. I believe you CAN have a roster that big. THAT LINE-UP would do some D A M A G E for sure!!!

If only 1 year we can ALL get along, make the sacrifice, advertise, make it worth while, ISWA dig deep into their pockets, as a state do what we gotta do and send ALL of our studs TOGETHER & ON THE SAME TEAM!!!! No way you tell me that line-up doesn't compete / challenge the best of the best.

 

***Hey maybe some of the local universities and premier clubs (I.U., Wabash, Purdue, Indiana Tech, MCWC, RWA, Red Cobra, etc...) pitch in and help make it happen???

 

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Some of those kids may not wrestle freestyle, right?

Blake mulkey doesnt wrestle a lot of freestyle (hardly any) he would do well. Good Wrestlers are Good Wrestlers would he go undefeated and win a Fargo title probably not but he would win 75% of his matches

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Cost and Time are the big two i think ,but we would have went regardless. Brayden missed state due to some personal issues so we did not qualify and were not asked. Others i know had SAT's the weekend of state so again would not qualify. On another note some kids are just warn out from the season and taking breaks. Loved Schoolboy Duals when he was that age can't imagine this being much different, but then again he did not have a high school season before doing Freestyle/Greco.    

Like i said peoples reasons for not going are theirs and it may have absolutly 0% to do with wrestling and what not. I think we just have to make it as attractive as possible to entice the kids/families to want to participate. 

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The ISWA and their leaders need to figure out how important it is to be competitive at the duals(schoolboy, cadet, and junior). We can do better and with some tweaking we could be 5-10ish every year. If we take the High Rollers that went to Virginia a month ago to Oklahoma they would have done very well. 

When I was on the ISWA board at the budget meeting they basically had $X they put back to all of the trips(duals, Fargo, etc). There were different ways they split up the money to each event and after that was done they split that money up per kid.

If the ISWA determines they really want to do well at the dual events, they should throw more money towards those events, thus making them cheaper for the kids.

I think the early "announcement" of the team has not been good either. If there are kids down the ladder that are solid that see the team is already formed they are turned off. They then focus on other events and go along their merry way. 

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Just a guess, but I'd say Nick and Joe Lee may be spending the summer in Happy Valley.

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Blake mulkey doesnt wrestle a lot of freestyle (hardly any) he would do well. Good Wrestlers are Good Wrestlers would he go undefeated and win a Fargo title probably not but he would win 75% of his matches

I just meant that some kids seem to be focusing more on Folkstyle so it may be hard to put together our best team.

 

I think with some creative thinking an all-star team is possible.  You just have to make them an offer that is hard to turn down.  

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The best recruiter for the wrestlers are the other wrestlers.   These guys know each others twitter, instagram and sometimes even phone number.  They keep up each other and talk to each other all the time.  If they start selling each other on the idea of a tough team that can compete then we will have one that can compete.  If they feel the cause is worth of the effort then I'm sure they will train more to adapt to Freestyle and find a way financially to go.

 

However right now the drive is just not there for many of our solid wrestlers to justify that type of summer effort or financial commitment.  Currently they don't know much of a team will actually show and are not sure if they want to commit the effort and fund raising to be there.  The state is just recovering from a dismal decade of writing off The Olympic styles all together which isn't helping either since many of our top guys have done very little wrestling in the spring over the last several years.   

 

7-10 matches against top national talent shouldn't be to hard to sell especially if these guys know they are going to be on a good team.  I'm sure some big name coaches calling guys early in the process and talking it up would help but getting their peers to take a leadership roll will be the best selling point.  

 

I remember hearing an interview with the Oklahoma guys a year or two ago where they said the wrestlers selling the idea of buildings a mega team team to each other was one of the reasons they were able to get so many top guys to commit and also hold each kther accountable to improving their Freestyle ability.  

Edited by MattM
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Just a guess, but I'd say Nick and Joe Lee may be spending the summer in Happy Valley.

I would imagine Cael would be Okay with them doing a 2 day tournament with some of the nations best its not like they need to be released to wrestle in the Browsnburg Open Esoecially since Nick wasnt able to Wrestle at the Trials another Fargo Title or Junior Duals Competition would be good. That being said if they were to go and the team is relegated to the red/Blue pool I can see why they wouldn't 

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The best recruiter for the wrestlers are the other wrestlers.   These guys know each others twitter, instagram and sometimes even phone number.  They keep up each other and talk to each other all the time.  If they start selling each other on the idea of a tough team that can compete then we will have one that can compete.  If they feel the cause is worth of the effort then I'm sure they will train more to adapt to Freestyle and find a way financially to go.

 

However right now the drive is just not there for many of our solid wrestlers to justify that type of summer effort or financial commitment.  Currently they don't know much of a team will actually show and are not sure if they want to commit the effort and fund raising to be there.  The state is just recovering from a dismal decade of writing off The Olympic styles all together which isn't helping either since many of our top guys have done very little wrestling in the spring over the last several years.   

 

7-10 matches against top national talent shouldn't be to hard to sell especially if these guys know they are going to be on a good team.  I'm sure some big name coaches calling guys early in the process and talking it up would help but getting their peers to take a leadership roll will be the best selling point.  

 

I remember hearing an interview with the Oklahoma guys a year or two ago where they said the wrestlers selling the idea of buildings a mega team team to each other was one of the reasons they were able to get so many top guys to commit and also hold each kther accountable to improving their Freestyle ability.  

I know from a coaching standput I think getting guys like Angel and Kendrick involved would do wonders not only are they best of the best but Are really good at communicating with the kids and relating to them. Not to mention they are pretty good at wrestling.

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My son was a part of this team both this year & last year & it was a great experience for him! The cost was really not bad, $550 for both styles, compared to what they are paying for Fargo. As far as who was on the team, many of the names suggested did not wrestle at Freestyle & Greco State. My son was always taught that doing these styles would improve your Folkstyle wrestling. He placed 1st in Greco & 2nd (behind Konrath) in Freestyle at state. In hindsight, he probably would've been more competitive at a weight class lower, but he also had to bump up a weight class half of the matches because we didn't have a 132 pounder! Encourage these "hammers" to compete at the state level so we can have a better team, but don't complain when the kids who won top spots in our state competition didn't fair as well as you hoped. These kids put in the practice & competed at the state level, so they deserved to go.

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I have been around for a while. I have also coached and been a team leader for national team duals. This is how I see it. Most of our studs continue to wrestle folk style well past our state tournament. They do little to no freestyle or Greco practices or meets leading up to our freestyle and Greco state tournaments. Most of our studs win because they are just better all around athletes and better wrestlers (all styles). Once they make the team they do little to no freestyle and Greco until they get to camp. That brings us to that..... camp! I do think that it is very important, but the timing (especially for the schoolboys) is not good. These kids do this camp for a few days, spend one night at home and spend the next four days wrestling the best kids in America. Come the last day of competition... they are done. And the add in the fact that alternates are not allowed... this makes it hard. Most of the top teams bring extras to keep their studs fresh for when it counts. No way states like Utah should be consistently be killing us. They wrestle these styles more, and prepare better than us. 

Here are my suggestions....

Continue a 1 day team camp if need be (to organize and hand out gear). Make it a couple days prior to the trip. That way the kids can prepare themselves mentally at the best place possible... their own bed. 

As soon as folk style state is over... do state team RTCs (one in each iswa section). These will be for those who plan on making a team or wrestling these styles at the national levels. These can take place once a week until state and twice a week after state (once teams are determined). This will also help fill teams and build depth (for alternates). Mandate these workouts to be two hours. One full hour of freestyle and one hour of Greco. Oh yeah.... two state team RTCs would count as one qualifier. Make it mandatory for team members. Weekend tournaments are great, but you can learn soooo much more in a good RTC.

As a part of the national team, you should be mandated to attend central regionals if you do not have seeding points. Our seeding is killing us. 

Look into corporate sponsership or fund raising to help with cost. 

Just my thoughts. And yes..... I would be willing to help. I'm not the type to complain or suggest stuff, and not help fix stuff. 

Edited by Mattyb
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My son was a part of this team both this year & last year & it was a great experience for him! The cost was really not bad, $550 for both styles, compared to what they are paying for Fargo. As far as who was on the team, many of the names suggested did not wrestle at Freestyle & Greco State. My son was always taught that doing these styles would improve your Folkstyle wrestling. He placed 1st in Greco & 2nd (behind Konrath) in Freestyle at state. In hindsight, he probably would've been more competitive at a weight class lower, but he also had to bump up a weight class half of the matches because we didn't have a 132 pounder! Encourage these "hammers" to compete at the state level so we can have a better team, but don't complain when the kids who won top spots in our state competition didn't fair as well as you hoped. These kids put in the practice & competed at the state level, so they deserved to go.

The Junior Duals is not a "Qualified" team, its picked. I'm sorry if you took it as a slight against your son, but objectively there are better wrestlers out there at the time of this tournament. Its good he got to go compete because yes it will improve his high school skills so good on him, but if our state goal is to compete we need guys like the lees and mason to particapate.

I have talked to a few parents and there concerns were that the line up initially posted as commitments is way off from who we got out there. Here is the initial Team who we took in Red

 

It's about to go down!!!

 

Below is the first round of Indiana wrestlers who have verbally committed to the Indiana National Junior Dual Team to compete at the 2017 Junior National Dual Championships in Tulsa, Oklahoma on June 20 - 24.  This event features guaranteed matches against the best of the best athletes in the country, from State Champs, All Americans, National Champions, and even World Champions.  Last year there were over 50 college coaches scouting, recruiting and coaching.  It is an awesome experience to say the least.

 

Because of the grind against this elite level of competition, we take a GOLD and BLUE team, both with alternates.  The GOLD team is hand selected by an ISWA committee based around tournament seeding criteria, and the BLUE team is filled by the results of the ISWA F/G State Finals starting with the State Champ.  My goal is to have this GOLD team buttoned up by the end of this IHSAA state weekend, meaning filling up the remaining spots for the Selection Committee.  Current interests:

 

106 - Jake Moran - Jake Moran

113 - Brayden Curtis - Seth Horty

120 - Braydan Littell - Gabe Smith 

126 - Asa Garcia, Ty Mills - Colin Poynter

132 - Jeremiah Reitz, Breydan Bailey - Josh Stephenson

138 - Brendan Black, Zach Melloh - Adam Jerde

145 - Kris Rumph - Tristan Sellmar

152 - Joe Lee - Kasper McinTosh

160 - Alston Bane - Sam Hauke

170 -                    - Tanner Webster

182 - Lucas Davison - Noah Cressel

195 - Andrew Davison - Lucas Davison

220 - Mason Parris - Kyle Cromwell

285 -                       - Eli Pokorney

 

Wrestlers, this lineup is subject to change. I have been in contact with all of you and will follow up this weekend, along with our guys from last year - I havent forgotten. :)  Parents and coaches,we have our eyes on a few more guys so this will team fill up fast.   If you are interested or want more information you can find me floating around this weekend, or you can text me at 317.800.5369 or email at coachnhull@gmail.com.

 

Best wishes this weekend Indiana and look forward to a great summer!

 

Nick Hull

Team Leader

Indiana Junior National Dual Team 

Now we are told this lineup is subject to change but what happened to cause so many verbal commits to drop out that's a solid team even with holes. I know some injuries happen and what not but only 2 kids on that line up were actually in OK what happened with the other 13.

 

 

I have been around for a while. I have also coached and been a team leader for national team duals. This is how I see it. Most of our studs continue to wrestle folk style well past our state tournament. They do little to no freestyle or Greco practices or meets leading up to our freestyle and Greco state tournaments. Most of our studs win because they are just better all around athletes and better wrestlers (all styles). Once they make the team they do little to no freestyle and Greco until they get to camp. That brings us to that..... camp! I do think that it is very important, but the timing (especially for the schoolboys) is not good. These kids do this camp for a few days, spend one night at home and spend the next four days wrestling the best kids in America. Come the last day of competition... they are done. And the add in the fact that alternates are not allowed... this makes it hard. Most of the top teams bring extras to keep their studs fresh for when it counts. No way states like Utah should be consistently be killing us. They wrestle these styles more, and prepare better than us. 

Here are my suggestions....

Continue a 1 day team camp if need be (to organize and hand out gear). Make it a couple days prior to the trip. That way the kids can prepare themselves mentally at the best place possible... their own bed. 

As soon as folk style state is over... do state team RTCs (one in each iswa section). These will be for those who plan on making a team or wrestling these styles at the national levels. These can take place once a week until state and twice a week after state (once teams are determined). This will also help fill teams and build depth (for alternates). Mandate these workouts to be two hours. One full hour of freestyle and one hour of Greco. Oh yeah.... two state team RTCs would count as one qualifier. Make it mandatory for team members. Weekend tournaments are great, but you can learn soooo much more in a good RTC.

As a part of the national team, you should be mandated to attend central regionals if you do not have seeding points. Our seeding is killing us. 

Look into corporate sponsership or fund raising to help with cost. 

Just my thoughts. And yes..... I would be willing to help. I'm not the type to complain or suggest stuff, and not help fix stuff. 

Matt I like those Ideas, I think having certain RTC's focus on the international styles is a good compromise to requiring all of them too. It would fix the dumb qualifier issue we have had the past few years. If we have the studs we could I dont think seeding points would be an issue but that's not a bad suggestion.

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If you want the state team to be that good then get your "studs" to do these events. Don't start bashing the kids who went out and gave their best because they wanted the experience and to represent. Some kids didn't even wrestle their normal weight. I noticed you have poynter at 126 and Stephenson at 132 but following on track those two rotated those weights meaning they were both giving up weight to begin with let alone against some of the best across the nation. These were the kids who wanted to go and dedicate themselves so live with it and don't bash them and how someone else could have done better. In the end there is almost always someone who could do better so praise the ones who try

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 As a part of the national team, you should be mandated to attend central regionals if you do not have seeding points. Our seeding is killing us. 

I don't have time to address the other points, but in all honesty winning regional does very little for seeding. We were seeded like 11th this year and lost to unseeded and lower seeded teams. Seeding only helps if we perform. I know we had both Davison brothers on the team to get seeding piints but could only use one in a dual.

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Sorry I misunderstood and confused this with the cadet dual in PA where the qualifier is to win state if i'm not mistaken.

Brayden told me about this event and was wanting to do this. He did tell me about it and i kept waiting for someone to contact me, but we never had anyone contact me or him other then a pm on social media to him asking him if he would like to do this. With that said I think better communication with the parents and not just touching base with the kid with no follow up would be a big move in the right direction. Again another thing that hurts is Disney. Many kids are wrapped up in this with there teams and running to Florida one weekend followed by Oklahoma the next is a lot to ask of a family.  

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Here is the way I remember the evolution of our duals teams (sprinkled with my opinions of why/why not some things changed).

The coaches of the duals teams were frustrated on how Indiana teams were made.  Up until around 2010 schoolboys/cadets/junior duals teams were made just by placement at ISWA state.  I remember giving the example of Andrew Howe, Cooper Samuel, Kyle Ulrey (all IHSAA State champions that year) all showing up at freestyle state in the same weight classes.  Because of the way ISWA selected duals teams at that time, only 1 of them could be on the junior duals team.

(Here's my opinion)...In the late 90's and early 2000's all of Indiana's duals teams were competitive and all of the hammers wanted to be on the team.  But that started to change.  In the late 90's NHSCA became a huge tourney.  Then add Super 32, FloNationals, USA Folkstyle nationals, MYWAY stuff, Dixie Nationals, Tulsa, etc.  This made tournament competition different for USA Wrestling/ISWA. 

I was involved in schoolboys duals at that time.  I asked most of the teams in schoolboy duals how they selected their teams.  There were pretty wide examples of how others made their team.  I remember Oklahoma's was almost funny.  Their state association would select their coaching staff and they would announce the three different tourneys they would attend.  If you wanted to be on Oklahoma's SBD team, you'd have to go to that tourney.  The coaches would 'select' the kids they saw at that tourney and then tell them what weight they'd need to make!  If Billy Badboy was at 100, they would say to him that he would need to make 91 of he wanted to go.

I asked the OK coach, "how many parents did you piss off doing it that way"....he replied, "all of them, but we want to be competitive".  ha!

Back in ISWA board meetings we started the discussion.  I remember asking, "does Indiana want the fairest way to make a team, or do we want to make the best team".  I said I believed that it is impossible to do both. 

(back to my opinion)...If we made the dual team only by placement at ISWA state, then we have the fairest way to make our team.  No one can complain because they either won or lost to the guy that is on the team.  If we have a coaching staff make the team, then we can have a lot of frustrated folks because they could say politics picks our team.  I can see the dilemma that the organization had at the time....throw in the concern that HYWAY was going to take over at that time too! 

A group of coaches got together, came up with the plan to use ISWA state similar as US Open.  If you won ISWA state, the spot on the duals team was your's, but you could lose that spot if someone beat you 2 out of 3 at camp.  It kept validity to the ISWA state and gave us the option to have flexibility to make a competitive team.  The first year we presented it, it was voted down.  The next year it passed, but then got voted down a month later.  The following year it passed.

(back to my opinion) With the competition of tourneys growing at that time (Flo, NHSCA added all HS grades, Disney duals, etc) the "alphas" of Indiana could go to Cadet/Junior duals on a team that was not the best team Indiana had and wrestle in the Purple pool for placement.  I understand that we can tell parents, "Come to Cadet/Junior duals and you will get over 10 matches against some of the best competition in the country".  I believe that is true.....if we took our best team.  We can all check trackwrestling and see the competition that IN teams had these past two months.  I agree that PA, OK, MN, IL, OH, etc had amazing teams and it would have been great for Paris, Lee, Lee, Lee, and crew to have duals against those teams.  But our team consistently makes the red/blue placement pools and wrestles Utah and Georgia.  The alpha parents know that they will get one match against a Gold/Silver pool team and then go wrestle the developmental teams in purple division. 

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Yes.. I have spoken to many other National team leaders also. The majority of the most successful team hand pick their teams. With this said, a handful of years ago I was given the task (by the ISWA) to create and develop the ISWA Elementary National Team. Knowing that this group included multiple age groups, I realized that we could not simply take our state champs. I figured a first year 6th grade schoolboy that finished 4th at state would smash our novice state champ (in most cases). With this said, I developed the ISWA elementary wrestle offs. I knew that multiple studs could show up at the same weight.. so I built in the opportunity to wrestle off at multiple weights (did the wrestle offs in sessions). This process has led to our elementary team being one of the best in the nation (year in and year out). They always make the gold pool and wrestle the best in the USA at nationals.

Here is the process that I think would produce our best team:

1. Make up a committee to hand pick our very best teams. This committee would be made up of academy coaches and team leaders who have a vast knowledge of the talent within our state. This committee would be tasked with having consistent communication with our elite wrestlers. They will inform them of the national team opportunities which may present themselves to them. They will also collect national team applications from our elite athletes. These applications will be due the weekend of folkstyle state. The committee could meet the week after state. At that time, the committee would choose our proposed national teams.

2. Members of the proposed team will be encouraged to attend the state tournaments. If members of the prosed teams win state, then the spot is theirs. If someone other than a member of the proposed team wins state in a weight class, then the member of the proposed team shall wrestle off the champ for the spot in a best of three (world team style) for a spot on the team. If that member of the proposed team loses the wrestle off, then a alternate spot will be offered to that wrestler (we need alternates anyway).

So basically hand pick a team, and build in a process to allow a better wrestler to take a spot (if your hand picked guy doesn't perform as he or she should). I think that this process would get us back in to the gold pools. The most important part of this process will to be to stay in contact with our wrestlers and keep them interested and informed. When I was taking the elementary teams to kick butt at nationals. I would contact families and coaches to ensure that they knew how great the tournament was going to be, and to ensure that they showed up to wrestle offs. I would even share with them which weight classes I though that they would fit best at.

 

 

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