Indiana's Best Ever...

[bluechipper]

I made a post earlier about the best one-time state champion earlier, but it got me thinking... Who is Indiana's best ever based on accomplishments in HS alone? I've picked my top three, and it was very difficult choosing the third one.

1. Chad Red - 4x undefeated state champion (2013-16), Fargo champion, Super 32 champion, Flo national champion, Flo #1 at WNO, #7 P4P

2. Jason Tsirtsis - 4x state champion (2009-12), Fargo champion, 2x Flo national champion, FILA Cadet champion, FILA JR placer

3. Alex Tsirtsis - 4x undefeated state champion (2001-04), Fargo runner-up, FILA JR sixth place, Midlands competitor as a high school student (3rd ever).

Edited February 28, 2017 by bluechipper

[Wade McClurg]

Sliga was a 5x Fargo Champion

[ScrambledLegs]

If you're putting Sliga in there for his dominant senior year, there's no way you can leave Andrew Howe off that list. 3x Champ with his loss in the finals freshman year coming to a senior Reece Humphrey. Then actually did tech his way through the state tournament his senior year, and did it without really breaking a sweat.

[bluechipper]

If you're putting Sliga in there for his dominant senior year, there's no way you can leave Andrew Howe off that list. 3x Champ with his loss in the finals freshman year coming to a senior Reece Humphrey. Then actually did tech his way through the state tournament his senior year, and did it without really breaking a sweat.

Oh, no. It was just a side note, but it was a toss up between Hump, Howe, Sliga, and Micic.

[backtothemat]

Blake Maurer?

[vito pepperelli]

This post is age discrimination! Good wrestling existed before 2009.  Just sayin. 

Edited February 27, 2017 by vito pepperelli

[Fabio Jr.]

This post is age discrimination! Good wrestling existed before 2009.  Just sayin. 

 

If we are going off of accomplishments during their High School years, CJ has to be 1. He beat everyone put in front of him during his HS career winning every major event.

 

I am not sure what guys like Lance Ellis's offseason accolades are maybe someone who was around back then could enlighten us. 

[XCard]

I think it's kind of hard to leave some 4xer off the list of Top 3, but hey it's his list. I do agree that Red has to be considered #1.

[bluechipper]

I think it's kind of hard to leave some 4xer off the list of Top 3, but hey it's his list. I do agree that Red has to be considered #1.

I understand, Alex Tsirtsis was a 4xer undefeated and surprisingly no one has mentioned me not including him. He and Angel both could be, but Mitch's five Fargo championships sort of took it through the roof for me and equalized him in a weird sort of way.

[Cpdogs1003]

May sound biased but I strongly believe Jason Tsirtsis is the most dominant/best wrestler in Indiana history. Freshman year he beat the defending state champion to earn his first state title. The next 3 years he doesn't get scored on offensively. Pinning/teching his way through the state tournament(Senior year). Also bumped up 2 or 3 weight classes to major Bobby Stevenson in a dual meet who later placed 5th at state that year.... I think. Then after the season he beat former NCAA champion, Darrion Caldwell. A couple weeks later he beat the #2 ranked wrestler in the country by a 14 point margin. The last two facts are what separates him from the rest of the pack in my opinion.

[Powerline]

This post is age discrimination! Good wrestling existed before 2009.  Just sayin. 

This is the correct answer - the specialization for the sport did not start until the early 1990's.  Most guys were 3 sport athletes wrestling part time.

A few of the Delta/Muncie guys were some of the first to do it year round.  

[Powerline]

I made a post earlier about the best one-time state champion earlier, but it got me thinking... Who is Indiana's best ever based on accomplishments in HS alone? I've picked my top three, and it was very difficult choosing the third one.

 

1. Chad Red - 4x undefeated state champion (2013-16), Fargo champion, Super 32 champion, Flo national champion, Flo #1 at WNO, #7 P4P

 

2. Jason Tsirtsis - 4x state champion (2009-12), Fargo champion, 2x Flo national champion, FILA Cadet champion, FILA JR placer

 

3. Mitch Sliga - 2x state champion (2012-13), 5x Fargo champion, FILA Cadet national champion, 5th in FILA Cadet world, USA Wrestling triple crown

 

Sliga probably had the most dominant season ever in Indiana HS history in 2013. Pinned or teched his way through the season minus his major of #2-ranked Clayton Fiddler who was undefeated.

 

Any 4x timer or 3x timer + top 3 place is in the discussion. Sliga is a great athlete, or phenomenal athlete, who had a fine career,

but tough to include him on this list a few reasons:

 

1. Big Guy Bias - Far more little guys wrestle year around, making the competition & talent far more deep. While the big younger guys

    seem to be at a disadvantage strength-wise vs. seniors, a little technique goes a long way against the guys are playing football and only

    wrestling part time. For every great big man wrestler, there are probably 20 lightweights or middleweights

 

2.  He's not even the best big guy. Guys like David Palmer in Muncie, 2nd (lost 3-2 in final),1st,1st,1st was cutting-edge for the State of Indiana in the

     late 1970's, a big guy wrestling year round.  See both wrestle many times, IMO, he would manhandle Sliga. He was a BAMF with technique.

 

3. Competition and only a 2x champ + 3rd, and 3rd - His senior year he beat a guy in the State Finals that was a 4th place Semi-State placer; that is indicative

    of both his dominance, but more so the lack of depth. Jr. year he beat Courtney Berry who is a great all around athlete, but a very

    part time wrestler. Sliga's sophomore year, if I recall, he got manhandled by Stevenson from Indiana Creek who finished 2nd.

    Both guys he lost to did not win State.   

 

    He had the rare advantage of staying one weight class (189) for all 4 years if I recall as well, which is a maturity advantage he had.

    All the best have transitioned through 3 or 4 weight classes to place. That's why Dake's 4x feat in NCAA's is superiorly underrated.

 

    It did not seem Sliga had that tough or memorable opponent in Indiana (not his fault) to wrestle that had experience & strength, that went on to be

    and ass beater in college. 

 

And finally, a guy like Howe just had that next gear of nastiness that could break his head through a wall, that folks don't want to touch.

There are a rare few guys that have that I have seen since 1970's...probably 5 or 6.  

[GrecoCoach]

Any 4x timer or 3x timer + top 3 place is in the discussion. Sliga is a great athlete, or phenomenal athlete, who had a fine career,

but tough to include him on this list a few reasons:

 

1. Big Guy Bias - Far more little guys wrestle year around, making the competition & talent far more deep. While the big younger guys

    seem to be at a disadvantage strength-wise vs. seniors, a little technique goes a long way against the guys are playing football and only

    wrestling part time. For every great big man wrestler, there are probably 20 lightweights or middleweights

 

2.  He's not even the best big guy. Guys like David Palmer in Muncie, 2nd (lost 3-2 in final),1st,1st,1st was cutting-edge for the State of Indiana in the

     late 1970's, a big guy wrestling year round.  See both wrestle many times, IMO, he would manhandle Sliga. He was a BAMF with technique.

 

3. Competition and only a 2x champ + 3rd, and 3rd - His senior year he beat a guy in the State Finals that was a 4th place Semi-State placer; that is indicative

    of both his dominance, but more so the lack of depth. Jr. year he beat Courtney Berry who is a great all around athlete, but a very

    part time wrestler. Sliga's sophomore year, if I recall, he got manhandled by Stevenson from Indiana Creek who finished 2nd.

    Both guys he lost to did not win State.   

 

    He had the rare advantage of staying one weight class (189) for all 4 years if I recall as well, which is a maturity advantage he had.

    All the best have transitioned through 3 or 4 weight classes to place. That's why Dake's 4x feat in NCAA's is superiorly underrated.

 

    It did not seem Sliga had that tough or memorable opponent in Indiana (not his fault) to wrestle that had experience & strength, that went on to be

    and ass beater in college. 

 

And finally, a guy like Howe just had that next gear of nastiness that could break his head through a wall, that folks don't want to touch.

There are a rare few guys that have that I have seen since 1970's...probably 5 or 6.  

I agree that there are other 3 & 4 time champs that should be considered for this list, but would be a mistake to completely dismiss Sliga because he was only a 2 time champ.  Here are my responses to your points:

 

1. Sliga played football, too.  I never had him in the wrestling room from August - November while he was playing.  His sophomore year, they won state in football, which cut into his season significantly.

 

2.  Palmer was great.  There's no way to know how a match between the two would end up, but "manhandle" isn't a result I would consider possible.

 

3.  Sliga's in-state competition wasn't great as a junior and senior, but the national competition he beat throughout his high school career can't be denied.  And, again, you're using the term "manhandled" when you are not recalling it correctly - the difference was from 5 points scored off a scramble.  Both years, his opponents treated that match as the finals.  Stephenson had already majored Goldman, and Atwood had pinned Johnson-Jones, so both had significant letdowns after their big wins over Sliga.

 

There are plenty of "ass beaters" in the college rankings that Sliga beat during his impressive Fargo championships.

 

Mitch might not be in the top 3 in many people's eyes, but his accomplishments should put him in the conversation.

[GrecoCoach]

Sliga probably had the most dominant season ever in Indiana HS history in 2013. Pinned or teched his way through the season minus his major of #2-ranked Clayton Fiddler who was undefeated.

 

That lone major was my fault.  His teammate, Seth Riley, had just lost in the semis after being ahead with 45 seconds left.  I didn't let Mitch cut Fiddler the last 2 periods.  If I had, he definitely could have teched or pinned him.

[ontherise219]

Jason tsirtsis or chad red. It's tough to go against either of the these guys.

[FCFIGHTER170]

Angel Escobedo,Jason T.,Howe,Alex T.,Cj

[swain358]

Not sure if I have seen someone completely dominate everyone like Andrew Howe did. His Junior and Senior years were ridiculously dominant. Not getting tech falled was an accomplishment for his opponents. 

[FCFIGHTER170]

I always heard David Palmer was a BAD DUDE so he definitely has to rep the best old school that would still be considered one the G.O.A.T today...I wish we had highlight tapes of these guys I would love see legends I didn't get to see in person..nostalgia

Edited February 28, 2017 by FCFIGHTER170

[xbrick132]

I always heard David Palmer was a BAD DUDE so he definitely has to rep the best old school that would still be considered one the G.O.A.T today...I wish we had highlight tapes of these guys I would love see legends I didn't get to see in person..nostalgia

David Palmer was a BAD DUDE. He was who we all wanted to be like wrestling in the early 80s.

[Caleb Spires]

Since being I wasn't around in the olden days I have to pick one of the newer successful guys. Having seen Jason Tsirtsis, Micic, Chad Red, and Sliga, I'm going to have to give the edge to Jason because he was head and shoulders above everyone at his weight his senior year. Red was a fantastic wrestler and it's hard to argue with someone listing him as their #1, but man Tsirtsis made it look easy.

 

Though it looks like we're about to have two 1-loss 3xers graduate next year as well which I assume is very rare.

[FCFIGHTER170]

Since being I wasn't around in the olden days I have to pick one of the newer successful guys. Having seen Jason Tsirtsis, Micic, Chad Red, and Sliga, I'm going to have to give the edge to Jason because he was head and shoulders above everyone at his weight his senior year. Red was a fantastic wrestler and it's hard to argue with someone listing him as their #1, but man Tsirtsis made it look easy.

Though it looks like we're about to have two 1-loss 3xers graduate next year as well which I assume is very rare.

Mason will be on Indiana Mt Rushmore...dominating monsters with ease

[Mo-town4]

David mccubins

[Powerline]

Angel - 4xr, NCAA 1st, 3rd, 4th, 5th

Jason Tsistis - NCAA champ, 3rd

Howe - NCAA - 3rd, 1st, 2nd, 2nd

Palmer

 

Drop

Edited March 1, 2017 by Powerline

[GrecoCoach]

Might want to pick the mic back up...

The original post stated based on high school accomplishments only.

[leaveitonthemat]

One argument for Red, is the win against Nick Lee.  I am sure most of us can agree that Nick Lee could be in this conversation.  If Nick had finished his high school career and gone a different weight than Red, he could have easily been a 3xer and his national resume is very impressive(Only losses are Red and Micic).  No Red did not pin his way through state, however he had some serious wins against Nick, Luke Pletcher (who is 14th in the nation for Ohio State), Taylor Lamont, and several others.