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Westforkwhite

Class Wrestling - Fairness

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1) How do you define what fair looks like for HS wrestling in IN?

2) Do you believe or current system is unfair?

3) Do you believe class wrestling would improve fairness?

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I love the no wrestle backs format. Kind of the same thrill with March madness. NFL playoffs. The one and done factor it brings. The excitement of watching a huge upset that totally changes the game. there's a thrill with every match, there is that lingering feeling of omg what did I just watch. If you eliminate Friday night at state you eliminate the most exciting round until the finals. Nothing better in my opinion then having to win when everything is on the line.

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The most unfair issue in a single class system is the team aspect. Small schools are at a distinct disadvantage from a team perspective. The single class system makes it extremely difficult for the smaller schools to win a team title.

 

Given the IHSAA doesn't even have a team tournament (even though they crown a team champion from the individual tourney which is another argument) but we do have a team dual tournament ran by the coaches association which is classed - It's all good as far as I'm concerned.

 

I like the individual tourney being a single class so we get a true state champ in each weight class, but that's just me.

 

As far as no wrestle-backs, it certainly makes for some exciting rounds but does not ensure proper placement of all wrestlers. I am OK with it as is, but wouldn't argue against wrestle-backs either.

Edited by SIACfan

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As far as no wrestle-backs, it certainly makes for some exciting rounds but does not ensure proper placement of all wrestlers. I am OK with it as is, but wouldn't argue against wrestle-backs either.

This is my issue of 'proper placement'.  I think the analogies to games like basketball and football where one little mistake, one big play, one player having an off night etc.... do not end a game are not really a legitimate comparison to wrestling. Also, we do not then say we placed all of those other teams (other than in the polls).

 

I'll use Reitz as an example @ the State Tournament.  He got upset in the 1/4 finals, fair enough Luigs earned the win.  But the fact that now Reitz can only do at best 5th is not an accurate placement (or at least we don't know if it is b/c of the format).  I could certainly cite examples like Cummings (out in the first round- to the  new state champ, is Cummings not even a top 8 placer?) and Van Horn (same question).

 

Dtaylor- I agree this makes it exciting for the fans (especially if you have no vested interest in the kid who got 'upset').  I hear 'Russian Roulette' is exciting too. But I don't know how exciting it is for a kid who put in hours and years of hard work.

 

.

Edited by MOWrestler

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Had this talk with my kids a few days ago and from a kids point of view they like it not being classed. Yes it would give more kids the chance to say i'm a state placer or champ, but there is something special that gets taken away by not facing the best of the best. You lose a little bit with class. There is always still the argument who is better. Is it the guy from 3A the guy from 2A or 1A. In Basketball you don't hear the great tails of the little guy that rose up to clam a title like Milan and Muncie Central. 

 

The big question is would it really get more kids involved. I think kids will wrestle basically because they want to or not. I don't see class playing a part in it. I have never heard a kid say i don't want to wrestle because it's not classed. I would be interested to see the stats of Basketball and Football in Indiana of kids involved before and after we went to a classed based system in those sports. 

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I don't understand why wrestle-backs are fair, but classing is not.  If a small school wrestler and a big school wrestler have the same chance, why doesn't the guy who loses Friday night or ticket round succumb to the same logic?  He/she had the same chance to win. 

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I don't understand why wrestle-backs are fair, but classing is not.  If a small school wrestler and a big school wrestler have the same chance, why doesn't the guy who loses Friday night or ticket round succumb to the same logic?  He/she had the same chance to win. 

I'm honestly ambivalent about the classing.  I'm also not saying the win or be done is inherently "unfair", we're all playing by the same set of rules.  If we simply said in IN we have one class and one champ and that's it then I think our system "makes sense".  The podium @ state would have one spot on it #1.  It could also be a one day event because no matter what round you lost in you'd just be done.

 

But we don't do that.  My issue is with 'placement accuracy'.  We supposedly place kids 1-8 @ the State Level.  It would be like having heats in track and not keeping times.  Instead you'd just take say the 2 fasted kids from each of 4 heats and then put them in the finals together and say that based on how they finished the last race that placed them 1-8.  This would be absurd, unless the heats were so clearly seeded based on times that you never had the 3 fastest kids in one heat (that would be like the proverbial Friday Night Death Draw or @ SS the terrible "Ticket Round" draw that we discuss all the time in these posts).

 

In track the problem is easy, you can use the times.  In wrestling, you have wrestlebacks to accomplish this task.  Again, it's not a round robbin, so you can always argue about some match-up that did not happen.  But wrestle-backs do a reasonable job of placing the kids accurately and they are the common system used in our sport.

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When I was a kid, participating in a "Class" organized sport never entered the equation.  I played 3 years of varsity baseball (Class) and 4 years of wrestling (single class) and never gave it a single thought because I wanted to participate in those sports.

 

I didn't play football in high school because I didn't enjoy it.

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I think most opinions on this is  generated by ones cultural experience.   Most people here grew up in Indiana, and experienced wrestling via one class.  As a result, you have a majority that is partial to and presents a significant   reluctance to change.

 

A couple years ago, I went on the wrestling board in the state where I grew up and asked about class wrestling.   I asked on the the "Kansas Wrestling Forum".  It doesn't have the traffic like Indianamat nor is as good for many reasons.    But back to my point.  I asked something like: Would they like it if they dropped class wrestling and went to one class?   Note Kansas has 4 classes.   Ironically,  a lot people asked what   "Class wrestling" was?.   Some weren't   familiar with the term.  I guess  we   throw the term around pretty loosely and  they don't have a "WestForkWhite" posting 8 different discussion about class wrestling on their site.   The general response was that the would be terrible and why would they do that.   I heard comments about nobody would qualify for state and that it  would mess with records.   Some people did the math and said no way.    It was a new paradigm to most.   A few people thought it was a good idea, and some even liked compromising by moving to 2 maybe 3 classes. 

 

I would say that the people in KS  grew up with Class Wrestling and they like it, don't discuss it as much and would be just as reluctant to change their format as people in Indiana.    Ironically,  a big problem in Kansas is that their 4 tournaments are held in 3 locations.   So its not coheshive and you don't get to see the best wrestlers in one site.

Edited by Wrestling Scholar

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I do kind of like this. One thing to sit back and say it is "LIFE" and life itself isn't fair. So many life lessons in wrestling :)

I get your point, but generally speaking I would say that adage is great for things that are "out of our control."  Like injuries, illness, etc.  Not things that are in our control, like run our tournament the right way.

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I do kind of like this. One thing to sit back and say it is "LIFE" and life itself isn't fair. So many life lessons in wrestling :)

There are many things in life that are "classed."

 

Taxes are classed on how much you earn.

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I asked this question in one of the other class wrestling topics and nobody replied. What would a 2 class state finals look like at Bankers Life Fieldhouse? I don't see how we can add a bunch of additional kids and still be able to complete the tournament on Friday night and Saturday.... I don't think many of us would want to give up the excitement created at that venue to have a classed tournament at separate venues or a different venue with extended days....

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I asked this question in one of the other class wrestling topics and nobody replied. What would a 2 class state finals look like at Bankers Life Fieldhouse? I don't see how we can add a bunch of additional kids and still be able to complete the tournament on Friday night and Saturday.... I don't think many of us would want to give up the excitement created at that venue to have a classed tournament at separate venues or a different venue with extended days....

The venue would be fine. You can easily add 2-4 mats if you wanted.

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The venue would be fine. You can easily add 2-4 mats if you wanted.

If this could be done, then more kids, more wrestling and more schools and fans in the stands..... Could be a good thing for both the IHSAA and the wrestling community....

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I asked this question in one of the other class wrestling topics and nobody replied. What would a 2 class state finals look like at Bankers Life Fieldhouse? I don't see how we can add a bunch of additional kids and still be able to complete the tournament on Friday night and Saturday.... I don't think many of us would want to give up the excitement created at that venue to have a classed tournament at separate venues or a different venue with extended days....

In Colorado we used the venue analogous to Banker's life, had 4 classes and wrestlebacks.  We did have more matches on Friday (started earlier- but the 1st round was not an eliminator).  It's been over 10 years since I was there, but basically in the preliminary rounds there were separate sessions occupying different times of day.  The finals we run all at once.  We had 4 classes though, 2 would be more manageable; like watching our 3rd/4th place matches right now.  Bottom line is it is quite doable, just take some different logistics.

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If this could easily be done why can't we have wrestle backs. Like I said before think of all the ticket sales they miss out on, on Saturday by not wrestling back the Friday losses.

 

Why are wrestlebacks a better corrective measure than class wrestling? 

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Why are wrestlebacks a better corrective measure than class wrestling? 

I think that wrestlebacks vs class wrestling are looking to fix 2 different issues.  Maybe repeating myself, but I see wrestlebacks as a corrective action to ensure more accurate placement.  I think the argument for class wrestling is to provide corrective action for school size.

 

I'd be FOR wrestlebacks with or without class wrestling.

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I'd like to see a scenario where we get classed individual tournament with wrestlebacks and a single class individual tournament with no wrestlebacks. I wouldn't be opposed to wrestlebacks in single class throughout if it were to happen. Just wish the schedule would be fair in comparison to basketball where they get a whole extra month of exposure. They play a lot of meaningless games for a month and a half, so why not let us wrestle more?

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