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Class Wrestling - Potential Benefits


Westforkwhite

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After spending a couple years observing and participating in class wrestling debates on the IndianaMat board, and I wanted to see if I could help focus the discussion by breaking out each topic. Often I find our debates are muddled as each side is arguing to different benefits/detractions. We all have positions and opinions on the topic because we care about wrestling in Indiana, and I think each side of the argument wants to see IN improve. I will make a separate topic to discuss each issue on it's own merits. The goal of this post is to list out all the perspective benefits that IN could yield from implementing Multi class wrestling, and hopefully build some consensus (or nearly so) around some of the individual issues.

 

Top Benefits (potential)

1) Increased Participation

      A) Total Wrestlers in the State

      B) Total Wrestlers entering the State Tournament

2) Increased Quality

     A) Increase in the Top End quality

     B) Increase in Overall quality

3) Increased Exposure (colleges)

4) Fairness

 

Let me know what major benefits you see with the implementation of Multi class wrestling. Please list any major benefits I've left off. Thanks.

 

 

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How could we go through the whole season without the class wrestling debate.  Had to happen sooner or later.

 

I look forward to it every year now  :) I'm open to changing my mind, but haven't been convinced yet that class wrestling is the best option

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Sure divide our state by 3 and have each state champ have barely over 100 kids to start the state series.

Why not destroy the strength of our state tournament as we now starting to get national attention and respect?

This is a terrible idea.

Please lock this thread oo

Edited by Mat Shark
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Sure divide our state by 3 and have each state champ have barely over 100 kids to start the state series.

Why not destroy the strength of our state tournament as we now starting to get national attention and respect?

This is a terrible idea.

Please lock this thread oo

Two classes would be better.

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No. but if you start to have success which is handicapped due to school size it creates a excitement in your community. excitement brings kid to the sport. Not all big schools are excited about wrestling and their numbers struggle also.

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If we did split up the state in Class A (largest schools) and Class B (smaller schools); how many of the State Placers this weekend would have been assigned to each?

Three class
--3A--2A--1A
1st--8----5---1
2nd--8----4---2
3rd--12---1---1
4th--12---2---0
5th--10---4---0
6th--11---3---0
7th--10---4---0
8th--6----6---2
Qua--139--69--16
Placers
3A- 77
2A- 29
1A- 6
 
2 Class
--2A--1A
1st---11---3
2nd---10---4
3rd---12---2
4th---12---2
5th---12---2
6th---13---1
7th---10---4
8th---10---4
Qua--167--57

 

Placers

2A- 90
1A- 22
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No. but if you start to have success which is handicapped due to school size it creates a excitement in your community. excitement brings kid to the sport. Not all big schools are excited about wrestling and their numbers struggle also.

I didnt think of it that way, i see what you are saying.

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if small schools want success start a club and build from there if that's what it takes. But I feel separating by class takes away from winning a title for all classes. Maybe I'm wrong if all the top kids wrestle year round and meet in the off season they know who's best I suppose but I still say it's not as special winning a title in a class system. I believe in 1 state 1 champion per weight. I watched my brother finish runner up over the weekend to a 2A kid. If it were classed he would have obviously won. I would have rather watched him get 2nd in a single class system than to win a "1A state title". Just my thoughts on it.

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I didnt think of it that way, i see what you are saying.

I'm sure the buzz around Monrovia right now will help get some more wrestlers out for the program.

if small schools want success start a club and build from there if that's what it takes. But I feel separating by class takes away from winning a title for all classes. Maybe I'm wrong if all the top kids wrestle year round and meet in the off season they know who's best I suppose but I still say it's not as special winning a title in a class system. I believe in 1 state 1 champion per weight. I watched my brother finish runner up over the weekend to a 2A kid. If it were classed he would have obviously won. I would have rather watched him get 2nd in a single class system than to win a "1A state title". Just my thoughts on it.

Many small schools have clubs and have had clubs for MANY years.

 

Simply starting a club doesn't magically make great wrestlers.

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I'm sure the buzz around Monrovia right now will help get some more wrestlers out for the program.

This is a very valid point, however its got a little of the chicken and egg thing going on. Without having a program to begin with how do you have the success that leads to more participation? If there is apathy towards wrestling at a given school is class wrestling likely to change that? Do we end up with just a few elite programs at the lower levels that dominate their respective divisions (much the same way it is today)?

Many small schools have clubs and have had clubs for MANY years.

 

Simply starting a club doesn't magically make great wrestlers.

I think the programs with clubs particularly at youth level will be the ones to reap the multi class benefits. I still question what effect this would have on the programs that don't have club or major commitment to the sport in place. We essentially have 4-5 1A programs, the rest just field teams (mostly incomplete) does class bring parity or does it just create a few dominant schools who place and win state disproportionately to their peers in the class.

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This is a very valid point, however its got a little of the chicken and egg thing going on. Without having a program to begin with how do you have the success that leads to more participation? If there is apathy towards wrestling at a given school is class wrestling likely to change that? Do we end up with just a few elite programs at the lower levels that dominate their respective divisions (much the same way it is today)?

Class wrestling will level the playing field for small schools. Right now the work they have to put in to be competitive is beyond measure. One of the benefits of class wrestling is better coaches will stay at the smaller schools like they do in other classed sports. There are many of our top coaches such as Jim Tonte and Brad Harper who both started at smaller schools then moved to bigger ones. Amazingly they had success at those small schools, but not even close to the success they had at the bigger ones.

 

I think the programs with clubs particularly at youth level will be the ones to reap the multi class benefits. I still question what effect this would have on the programs that don't have club or major commitment to the sport in place. We essentially have 4-5 1A programs, the rest just field teams (mostly incomplete) does class bring parity or does it just create a few dominant schools who place and win state disproportionately to their peers in the class.

Maybe those smaller schools see that success is a little more attainable and start clubs or invest more into their program. Once schools that have had little to no success start having success it can steamroll quickly. 

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Class wrestling will level the playing field for small schools. Right now the work they have to put in to be competitive is beyond measure. One of the benefits of class wrestling is better coaches will stay at the smaller schools like they do in other classed sports. There are many of our top coaches such as Jim Tonte and Brad Harper who both started at smaller schools then moved to bigger ones. Amazingly they had success at those small schools, but not even close to the success they had at the bigger ones.

 

Well I would imagine those great coaches earlier successes were in line with their current achievements when you factor the number of students represented. But this drifts more into the fairness subtopic.

 

 

Maybe those smaller schools see that success is a little more attainable and start clubs or invest more into their program. Once schools that have had little to no success start having success it can steamroll quickly.

 

I think that is a very logical thought, but hard to prove statiscally or otherwise. Not being able to prove it doesn't mean it isn't true, but I think it will be hard to build agreement on that as a given result of classing.

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Many small schools have clubs and have had clubs for MANY years.

 

Simply starting a club doesn't magically make great wrestlers.

I agree with that but it's definitely a starting point. I've watched my older brother, father and multiple others pour a lot of effort into Shenandoahs' program. I'm pretty sure everyone in the state has seen the fruits of their labor. While it's a lot of work it's certainly not unobtainable.
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I think that is a very logical thought, but hard to prove statiscally or otherwise. Not being able to prove it doesn't mean it isn't true, but I think it will be hard to build agreement on that as a given result of classing.

I've seen growth in a program that I was very much involved in. I have seen this very much first hand.

I agree with that but it's definitely a starting point. I've watched my older brother, father and multiple others pour a lot of effort into Shenandoahs' program. I'm pretty sure everyone in the state has seen the fruits of their labor. While it's a lot of work it's certainly not unobtainable.

It's not unobtainable, but we need to also sit back and see how long it lasts. Is Shenandoah a fly by night program or do they join the ranks of Adams Central and Prairie Heights as a perennial small school power? We'll see and I'm rooting for them to continue the success.
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I've seen growth in a program that I was very much involved in. I have seen this very much first hand.

It's not unobtainable, but we need to also sit back and see how long it lasts. Is Shenandoah a fly by night program or do they join the ranks of Adams Central and Prairie Heights as a perennial small school power? We'll see and I'm rooting for them to continue the success.

I don't doubt your experience with growth in that program whatsoever, but that doesn't equate to class wrestling replicating that at high levels elsewhere. It might, and you certainly make a good argument, but it's anecdotal and could represent an isolated scenario. An isolation scenario possibly mirrored by the current high rate of 1A qualifiers/placers that come from only a few of the 101 1A schools? So if multi class wrestling does have an impact on quantity or quality how wide is that impact spread?

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Here is a list of years each respective state adopted a multi class system and the number of classes.

 

GA 67-2 71-4 01-5 13-6 17-7

IL 74-2 09-3

IA. 57-2 69-3

KS. 66-2 71-3 73-4

MI. 61-2 74-4

MN. 76-2 97-3

NY. 04-2

OH. 74-2 76-3

PA. 74-2

WA. 31-2 58-3 69-4

WI. 80-3

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I don't doubt your experience with growth in that program whatsoever, but that doesn't equate to class wrestling replicating that at high levels elsewhere. It might, and you certainly make a good argument, but it's anecdotal and could represent an isolated scenario. An isolation scenario possibly mirrored by the current high rate of 1A qualifiers/placers that come from only a few of the 101 1A schools? So if multi class wrestling does have an impact on quantity or quality how wide is that impact spread?

So more teams having success won't have an affect on participation numbers? Did you not see or hear the Shenandoah crowd this weekend? They were as loud or louder than teams like Chesterton and Perry Meridian. 

 

Have you ever seen a 1A or 2A sectional or regional championship? They literally shut down the town when their high schools have success. This weekend Central Noble had a sign outside the town saying "last one to leave, turn the lights off" when they had a couple state qualifiers and a girls basketball team at semi-state. Imagine if that were more schools.

 

That is GOOD for the sport. More kids and schools going to state will promote the sport in more places. 

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I'm sure the buzz around Monrovia right now will help get some more wrestlers out for the program.

Many small schools have clubs and have had clubs for MANY years.

 

Simply starting a club doesn't magically make great wrestlers.

 

Simply having a larger student population doesn't magically make great wrestlers either.  Just ask Carmel and Ben Davis (the two largest schools in our state).

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After qualifying 4 for state Middletown had a police led parade through the town for Shenandoah. If more communities recognized more teams in a way like this it is sure to raise numbers at least trying out I would have to think. Kids seeing the success and recognition should encourage some to have the chance to be apart of something special.

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Simply having a larger student population doesn't magically make great wrestlers either.  Just ask Carmel and Ben Davis (the two largest schools in our state).

Thank you for that comment. No one has stated that. However, Carmel and Ben Davis had as many or more state placers than all but 1, 1A school.

 

 

After qualifying 4 for state Middletown had a police led parade through the town for Shenandoah. If more communities recognized more teams in a way like this it is sure to raise numbers at least trying out I would have to think. Kids seeing the success and recognition should encourage some to have the chance to be apart of something special.

That is exactly the things that small towns do when their sports teams have success. More towns that do this will bring lots of positive recognition for the sport. Thus more kids will want to be like the high school kids and join up with wrestling.

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