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MOWrestler

Bautista Slam?

42 posts in this topic

I had an interesting seat between both Penn fans and Bautista supporters.  Clearly each had different takes on the slam calls.  Penn fans obviously agreed with the calls on the mat, but others seemed to think Demein was basically flopping...making the slam look worse by going limp on the mat return.  Any non-partisan observers have an opinion on this match?

regionrumbler likes this

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I would question what constitutes a slam in the rule book. I sat next to a licensed official and he said slamming was a point of emphasis this year. I thought Bautista returned him with force, but followed him to the mat, so it didn't appear that there was intent to cause injury. I can't speak to the extent of the injury to the Penn wrestler or whether he was trying to win an academy award, but he seemed able to wrestle after the first two stoppages. I thought the ref got too involved in the match (I'm aware there is an officials link, Fabio, no need to share it) and should have allowed 2 talented wrestlers to decide who was going to state on the mat. I know neither kid, but from my spacious seat, I felt the fans were robbed of a great match. Removing all the "slam" points, I believe that's a tied match with a minute and a half left in the 3rd, with a spot at state on the line, that's what it's all about.

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It was only tied because the ref gave 1 point for the initial slam , then another return caused another point , the final return was DQ.

 

Bautista was up 4-3 before the slams.

He returned him hard , but he followed him down and he did not have an arm trapped that i could see. After the first point , you have to stop doing it that way - the last return was on a takedown attempt I believe and Alex was behind him on a scramble - that return would have given Bautista a 6-5 lead.

 

As A coach you have to implore him not to do it again - it was a tough situation for Alex he needed to return him as Demien was going towards out of bounds. I don't agree with the call , but after the ref established he would call it - you have to figure something out.

My son had been returned just as hard many times , with no calls.

It was a tough situation

Edited by Bigyusm
kman likes this

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Agree or disagree. The more we learn about concussions you can't take any chances. I do not think Bautista did it on purpose. But at the point of DQ he should have played it safe. Tanner didn't wrestle the rest of day. Hopefully he will be able to go Friday night

Galagore likes this

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I happened to b mat side when slams took place , 1st one def a hard slam , 2nd wasn't as bad , 3rd I didn't think was a slam he returned him hard and threw his shoulder into him as he hit the mat so that made it look bad , but gosh after getting hit twice already why in the world would u pick him up again and risk it , why not circle front and take him back down in a double .... Why in the world would u take the chance and pick him totally off the mat .... I commend the penn kid for continuing each time ... He coulda easily said I'm hurt after the first one ...

barrydjr likes this

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I was mat side and in my opinion I didn't think any of the 3 returns was a slam. all were good solid returns that sounded loud on the dollamur mat. the sound echoed and made it seem worse specially on the third. terrible way to decide a great match

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I concur MCKAJC.  I was within a few feet and was very surprised with those calls.  Bautista was in a very tough spot.  He couldn't afford to cut him late, couldn't take a chance on not returning him when the Penn kid stood up each time and couldn't drop to an ankle or Baut would've surely been called for stalling...so he returned him, but went down in an almost textbook return it seemed from my vantage point.  Tough calls for HC and Bautista!

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Scholar:  Agreed. Penn's 120 transfer definitely benefited from questionable calls in both matches he wrestled.  Every time I watched him this season (probably because he's similar weight to the Morans) it made me question the transfer/eligibility criteria.  The Penn kid transferred and had trained at Penn and been coached by Harper in the off-season.  He remained eligible, whereas the IHSAA's "undue influence clause" was used to rule the Morans ineligible, because Vega had done the exact same thing. It cost the Morans their senior and sophomore seasons.  Last year at this time they were two of the rising stars out of the EC SS. So inconsistent. 

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I was a bit away from the mat, but I would have to agree that the mat made the sound of the return worse then what it looked like. With that being said I am not saying demien was faking the hurt. I also applaud for him to keep continuing to wrestle. I saw the heavy for portage also get called for a slam off of a double leg, when his knee hit the mat before his opponent. Same mat and same ref. I also applaud that ref for seeing the danger in all these situations and calling it. Wrestling is a very dangerous sport and we all know this, I feel better with refs that are out there looking for the safety of the wrestlers. Tough break for Bautista but he shouldn't have put himself in that position for the call.

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Karl Hungus: You're probably right, but that "signing off" part, seems to be a major flaw in the system.  Why should the Morans be punished, because their prior school contests, whereas Goehrings and Demiens in another part of the state remain eligible, because their respective schools don't, when the rule violated is exactly the same?  Why doesn't the IHSAA determine each case on its own merits, and not leave it up to the schools discretion?  Justice should be fair by definition, and meted out equally.  As long as individual schools have a say in it, it can't be equal treatment to each athlete, because schools will differ in their approach.  The IHSAA should objectively look at each situation and rule independently. Shouldn't they?  Am I missing something?  If so, please set me straight!

 

It really sickens me to know Jonathon Moran lost something he can never get back, his senior season, through no fault of his own.  As coaches, parents and fans we get so tired of seeing kids quit sports late in their careers, for whatever reason, because we know from experience, what a special time of life high school is.  We try hard to keep kids involved...and yet here is a passionate, hard-working kid who was denied the opportunity to continue to pursue his passion.  If he wasn't as passionate and hard-working, he probably would not have achieved as much success, so...his school would have been much less likely to contest the transfer.  Which is yet another reason it shouldn't be left to the school's discretion.  Wouldn't we find it farcical to do the same thing with regard to a high academic achiever?  Example: A very gifted science student wishes to transfer to a neighboring school, because it has a better Science Department and a well respected Engineering Club.  Would anybody try to stop that academic transfer?    

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Colfax:  Are you saying you saw the Portage HWY perform a legal move (returned his own knee to the mat before, or as, he planted his opponent on the mat) and you applaud the ref for calling a violation?  If so, are we all so concerned with safety that we are okay with refs making up their own safety rules as they go?  How can a wrestler or coach have any idea what is okay to do, if it is all going to be subjective...for each official to decide on his own?  I don't think officials want that much discretion.  

grapplegirl likes this

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I applaud the ref for making the safety call on the Bautista match, and in quick time with the portage heavy I could see how it looked like a slam because the ref more then likely didn't see the knee hit first. So yes I applaud the ref for making calls that he believes or feels are unsafe. I'd rather have kids be able to wrestle the rest of their life if they choose then a kid carted off the mat. Just my own opinion but I guess your not looking for kids safety. To each his own.

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Raider:  Not sure if reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, or if you just like being snarky...but whichever the case may be...I have re-read my post and in no way, did I say I am not interested in safety.  I think officials, coaches and athletes deserve to know what those safety guidelines are and adhere to them, with as little subjectivity as possible.  I am a coach, official and a parent of four athletes in different sports.  It is not fair to anybody, most of all an official to use an "I'll know it when I see it approach."  If we are trained that certain moves are legal and certain ones are unsafe and illegal, then we should closely adhere to those rules.  The safety rules in all sports are crafted by medical experts nationally, so I think we should rely on them.  Coaches and athletes are at a big disadvantage if officials penalize legal moves.  There is always some subjectivity, but it should be minimized as much as possible.  The moves described on this board were textbook legal from what I saw and what you and others described.  Closely following the National Federation safety rules and guidelines, and consistency in the enforcement, will enhance safety, not reduce it, in my opinion.  Nothing would bother me more as an official, than to have "a kid carted off" under my watch.  

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That does not void the "past link."  If they deem you are moving for athletic reasons, regardless of your move, you may be ruled ineligible.  I am not saying any of the kids should be ineligible.  I wish the Moran's were eligible!  It was stated the Morans had actually moved to the Portage district before the ruling.

grapplegirl likes this

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Karl Hungus: You're probably right, but that "signing off" part, seems to be a major flaw in the system.  Why should the Morans be punished, because their prior school contests, whereas Goehrings and Demiens in another part of the state remain eligible, because their respective schools don't, when the rule violated is exactly the same?  Why doesn't the IHSAA determine each case on its own merits, and not leave it up to the schools discretion?  Justice should be fair by definition, and meted out equally.  As long as individual schools have a say in it, it can't be equal treatment to each athlete, because schools will differ in their approach.  The IHSAA should objectively look at each situation and rule independently. Shouldn't they?  Am I missing something?  If so, please set me straight!

 

It really sickens me to know Jonathon Moran lost something he can never get back, his senior season, through no fault of his own.  As coaches, parents and fans we get so tired of seeing kids quit sports late in their careers, for whatever reason, because we know from experience, what a special time of life high school is.  We try hard to keep kids involved...and yet here is a passionate, hard-working kid who was denied the opportunity to continue to pursue his passion.  If he wasn't as passionate and hard-working, he probably would not have achieved as much success, so...his school would have been much less likely to contest the transfer.  Which is yet another reason it shouldn't be left to the school's discretion.  Wouldn't we find it farcical to do the same thing with regard to a high academic achiever?  Example: A very gifted science student wishes to transfer to a neighboring school, because it has a better Science Department and a well respected Engineering Club.  Would anybody try to stop that academic transfer?    

 

I thought the IHSAA did review the Moran case on its own merits in the appeal process?  Twice.

 

The IHSAA is a governing body run by the schools.  If two member schools sign off, the IHSAA will not get involved, if one does not sign off, then they become involved.

 

Trying to compare the Moran's case to other transfer situations puts you on a slippery slope because we laymen and laywomen are not privy to all the details.  On the surface, I agree it looks unfair for some kids to be able to wrestle and other not.  But I honestly don't think the IHSAA is sticking to some kids on purpose and giving others a free pass.  

vito pepperelli and cbarnett like this

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The larger problem Karl is that most people on this board take hearsay as fact. Just because you hear they moved, doesn't mean it's fact. Also, with now lax the state has become with regard to residency, whatever a family does to get denied eligibility has to be egregious in the eyes of the IHSAA. The finger pointing needs to stop, the funny part is you don't hear anything negative from the family. The Moran's have handled this with class in my opinion, perhaps realizing the results of the case are solely on their shoulders. I though the kids said the right things when they were interviewed in the paper and seem resigned to just move forward and learn from the mistake.

Edited by sportsfangms

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I thought the IHSAA did review the Moran case on its own merits in the appeal process?  Twice.

 

The IHSAA is a governing body run by the schools.  If two member schools sign off, the IHSAA will not get involved, if one does not sign off, then they become involved.

 

Trying to compare the Moran's case to other transfer situations puts you on a slippery slope because we laymen and laywomen are not privy to all the details.  On the surface, I agree it looks unfair for some kids to be able to wrestle and other not.  But I honestly don't think the IHSAA is sticking to some kids on purpose and giving others a free pass.  

Correct, we don't know the details but the perception looks bad.    Maybe there should be some transparency by the IHSAA.    I'm also  not   aware   any  situations or details where a kid transferred to a new school during the wrestling season after being kicked off   the   previous   team for disciplinary reasons.    Im glad nothing like that happened, because that would look very irregular and hypocritical.

Edited by Wrestling Scholar
regionrumbler likes this

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Correct, we don't know the details but the perception looks bad.    Maybe there should be some transparency by the IHSAA.    I'm also  not  aware   any  situations or details where a kid transferred to a new school during the wrestling season after being kicked off   the   previous   team for disciplinary reasons.    Im glad nothing like that happened, because that would look very irregular and hypocritical.

 

If both schools sign off, the IHSAA does not get involved.  If they are not involved then they are not being irregular nor hypocritical.

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If both schools sign off, the IHSAA does not get involved.  If they are not involved then they are not being irregular nor hypocritical.

So the trick is not to get the IHSAA involved then. The lesson here is not to piss off the departing school admin, then the IHSAA transfer rules really don't apply.   I don't think we need to be "privy to all the details", we just need to understand how the system really works.

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