maligned Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) So Avon and calumet sectional/regional get higher points based on having 2 top 10 teams? Is the formula adjusted every year?Here is the explanation for how Categories work: http://indianamat.com/index.php/topic/51529-team-state-qualification-faqs-topic-3-controlling-for-sectional-and-regional-difficulty/?fromsearch=1 Categories are recalculated every year and included in the qualification procedures doc I linked above in response to Brick6. But no, scores aren't adjusted up or down; there are just sometimes more or less than 4 regional or semi-state scoring positions available at each tournament site depending on its depth. The FAQ link explains it step by step. Edited February 23, 2017 by maligned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hook and half Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 5 of the top 8 3A automatic qualifiers are from the Evv SS (BBurg, Avon, Col East, Mater Dei, Castle). You want to redistrict SS and put Hendricks County in New Castle? Okay by me! #movethecounty WrestleMan and Kookie953 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattyb Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 #movethecounty Hehe...... the rumor is that we will not be going to Evansville any longer. The word is that they are moving semi-state North. While we will not be going to New Castle, but we will be meeting in the middle somewhere. So... I guess we are all moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Hehe...... the rumor is that we will not be going to Evansville any longer. The word is that they are moving semi-state North. While we will not be going to New Castle, but we will be meeting in the middle somewhere. So... I guess we are all moving. Not next year according to MarioK. However I know for us personally I would be all for that. Evansville does do a WONDERFUL JOB with it and the venue is second to none but for me personally the drive and MS State the next day means im basically out of commission Monday and Tuesday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMILL Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 im basically out of commission Monday and Tuesday . Aren't you always basically out of commission on Monday and Tuesday's ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 . Aren't you always basically out of commission on Monday and Tuesday's ? I dont like your tone hook and half and Kookie953 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 So Avon and calumet sectional/regional get higher points based on having 2 top 10 teams? Is the formula adjusted every year? The Calumet Sectional and regional both got rated a 4 this year. That means this more of a median sectional and regional. Avon was rated a 5 sectional and the Moorseville Regional was a 6. The difference is the Mooresvile regional 5th and 6th place finishers get semi-state qualifying points, where in the Calumet regional only the top 4 get semi-state points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMILL Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 I dont like your tone . oh crap......like UncleJimmy says..........I guess I forgot to use my sarcasm font Side note I got the pleasure of meeting UncleJimmy at state and we had a great talk and now are allies against everyone not in #TheCounty !!!! UncleJimmy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickfor6 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 The Calumet Sectional and regional both got rated a 4 this year. That means this more of a median sectional and regional. Avon was rated a 5 sectional and the Moorseville Regional was a 6. The difference is the Mooresvile regional 5th and 6th place finishers get semi-state qualifying points, where in the Calumet regional only the top 4 get semi-state points. Why do they get semi-state qualifying points if they don't qualify for semi-state?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 Why do they get semi-state qualifying points if they don't qualify for semi-state?? I just linked these answers to your questions a few comments ago: http://indianamat.com/index.php/topic/51529-team-state-qualification-faqs-topic-3-controlling-for-sectional-and-regional-difficulty/?fromsearch=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Why do they get semi-state qualifying points if they don't qualify for semi-state?? Not to step on Maligned's toes here, but Ill try to explain. Based on the Genius ratings, the teams in the Mooresville have overall higher genius ratings. Maligned has historical data that demonstrates a history the number of semi-state qualifiers from a team based on its genius rating. So to summarize, based on the quality of teams, Maligned is saying that in the Mooresville regional of a 6 rating, that the 2 guys that got 5th or 6th, they would have made the top 4 in an average regional. This will make you feel better. The Logansport Regional is a 3. So the guys that got 4th place in Logansport, they didn't get Semi-State points even though the qualified for Semi-State. Logansport got a 3 because the overall depth was lower. Its not the simplest method, but its pretty statiscally fair. Give a good read to the qualifying info, it starts to make sense after a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 So logansport is a 3 and calumet was a 4? I wouldn't agree on that brickfor6 and grapplegirl 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Logansport 1 medal 0 semi finalist Calumet 12 medals 9 semi finals Mooresville 19 medals 11 semi finalist So again how is logansport a 3 and calumet a 4? grapplegirl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 Logansport 1 medal 0 semi finalist Calumet 12 medals 9 semi finals Mooresville 19 medals 11 semi finalist So again how is logansport a 3 and calumet a 4? Because high-end talent has little relationship with sectional or regional crowdedness--which is what the Categories measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Calumet represented 9/12 semi/medalist of Ec 15/31 Mooresville 11/19 16/31 Also I don't think any of these teams had to deal with another regional with depth of a CP (4/9) And 6 of the 14 logansport champs lost first round of semi state compared to 1/14 from calumet. Sounds like it isn't a depth issue either MOWrestler and grapplegirl 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brickfor6 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 "Mic drop" ontherise219 and MOWrestler 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grapplegirl Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Calumet represented 9/12 semi/medalist of Ec 15/31 Mooresville 11/19 16/31 Also I don't think any of these teams had to deal with another regional with depth of a CP (4/9) And 6 of the 14 logansport champs lost first round of semi state compared to 1/14 from calumet. Sounds like it isn't a depth issue either I remember a very well-reasoned, statistics-based analysis of the process that was written on this message board a couple years ago when a very solid Portage team was left out of consideration due to these multiplier/category issues. I don't know all of the specifics, but I believe some changes have been made every year to try to make this a fair process and predictor of dual team success, hopefully to remedy some of the early kinks that were identified with the multipliers. I appreciate what maligned and the selection committee do, but I take most issue with the fact that there is not one member of the IHSWCA State Duals selection committee who is from within 2 hours of Northwest Indiana. And without representation, I feel that NWI is judged more on the high percentage of early forfeits in sectionals, from the Gary/EC and rural Lake, Porter and LaPorte County teams, than the high end quality and depth that are coming into and out of Calumet/CP regionals and EC semi-state. I would like to better understand how the selection committee was comprised and why most areas of the state are represented on it, but not NWI. Specifically, I could be wrong, but I don't even think that any of the members are EC semi-state attendees. That is troubling to me, and I think it plays a part in categories potentially being lower than they should be for NWI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bog190 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 I remember a very well-reasoned, statistics-based analysis of the process that was written on this message board a couple years ago when a very solid Portage team was left out of consideration due to these multiplier/category issues. I don't know all of the specifics, but I believe some changes have been made every year to try to make this a fair process and predictor of dual team success, hopefully to remedy some of the early kinks that were identified with the multipliers. I appreciate what maligned and the selection committee do, but I take most issue with the fact that there is not one member of the IHSWCA State Duals selection committee who is from within 2 hours of Northwest Indiana. And without representation, I feel that NWI is judged more on the high percentage of early forfeits in sectionals, from the Gary/EC and rural Lake, Porter and LaPorte County teams, than the high end quality and depth that are coming into and out of Calumet/CP regionals and EC semi-state. I would like to better understand how the selection committee was comprised and why most areas of the state are represented on it, but not NWI. Specifically, I could be wrong, but I don't even think that any of the members are EC semi-state attendees. That is troubling to me, and I think it plays a part in categories potentially being lower than they should be for NWI. I've had as many issues with the system as anyone, including the committee and their selections, but saying that the composition of the committee plays a part in the categories being lower for Northwest Indiana just shows a lack of understanding of the system and how the categories are developed. Wrestling Scholar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) Mike, you're still focused on top-level results--not bottom-end crowdedness. The number of state qualifiers from a regional does not tell us how good the 4th, 5th, and 6th guys at a regional are. It only tells us how good the top 1 or 2 are. Here is the breakdown of expected semi-state qualifiers for Calumet and Logansport by team, based on their full-season quality from 2016-17. Which team's projected semi-state qualifier estimate is wrong, in terms of how many they would have in a down-the-middle, average regional? Genius Proj SS Qual 103.9 11.8 Portage 88.3 9.4 Merrillville 65.4 5.9 Hobart 57.1 4.9 Lake Central 44.6 3.5 Hammond Gavit 38.6 2.9 Highland 35.8 2.7 Griffith 35.5 2.6 Calumet 27.7 2.0 Hammond Morton 23.5 1.7 Munster 21.9 1.6 Hammond 21.4 1.6 Lake Station Edison 21.0 1.6 River Forest 1.0 0.6 Hammond Clark -9.6 0.3 Gary West Side -12.9 0.3 Whiting -16.1 0.2 East Chicago Central -22.2 0.1 Hammond Bishop Noll total 53.7 per wt 3.8 (rounded to Category 4) Genius Proj SS Qual 79.9 8.0 Harrison (WL) 64.1 5.7 Lafayette Jefferson 50.8 4.1 Cass 50.2 4.1 West Lafayette 39.9 3.0 McCutcheon 36.6 2.7 Logansport 23.3 1.7 North White 22.3 1.7 Rensselaer Central 20.2 1.5 West Central 18.3 1.4 Delphi 18.3 1.4 Winamac 16.5 1.3 Benton Central 14.7 1.2 North Newton 13.5 1.2 Twin Lakes 13.0 1.1 Rossville 8.5 0.9 Lafayette Central Catholic 1.3 0.6 Frontier -13.0 0.3 South Newton -21.2 0.2 Faith Christian -27.8 0.1 Tri County -28.6 0.1 Carroll (Flora) -31.5 0.1 Pioneer total 42.5 per wt 3.0 (rounded to Category 3) Edited February 23, 2017 by maligned bog190 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) Logansport 1 medal 0 semi finalist Calumet 12 medals 9 semi finals Mooresville 19 medals 11 semi finalist So again how is logansport a 3 and calumet a 4? Ontherise, What do you think about Lafayette Jeff is a sectonal with a 4 rating and the calumet sectional is also gets a 4 rating. Overall depth is similar, but the Jeff sectional hasn't been able to break through the barrier and get to state. Also the Logansport regional already gets handicapped already. You got to get top 3 in Logansport to get points where Calumet gets points for top 4 places. Also, you score points in sectional, regional and state. If a Regional has top guys, they got the still get the top points down the road when they earn them. Edited February 23, 2017 by Wrestling Scholar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 (edited) I remember a very well-reasoned, statistics-based analysis of the process that was written on this message board a couple years ago when a very solid Portage team was left out of consideration due to these multiplier/category issues. I don't know all of the specifics, but I believe some changes have been made every year to try to make this a fair process and predictor of dual team success, hopefully to remedy some of the early kinks that were identified with the multipliers. I appreciate what maligned and the selection committee do, but I take most issue with the fact that there is not one member of the IHSWCA State Duals selection committee who is from within 2 hours of Northwest Indiana. And without representation, I feel that NWI is judged more on the high percentage of early forfeits in sectionals, from the Gary/EC and rural Lake, Porter and LaPorte County teams, than the high end quality and depth that are coming into and out of Calumet/CP regionals and EC semi-state. I would like to better understand how the selection committee was comprised and why most areas of the state are represented on it, but not NWI. Specifically, I could be wrong, but I don't even think that any of the members are EC semi-state attendees. That is troubling to me, and I think it plays a part in categories potentially being lower than they should be for NWI. It's strictly data--based solely on the scores of all the dual meets and tournaments throughout the state. I orchestrate the categories and I wrestled and officiated more matches involving Merrillville/E Chicago semi-state teams than any other in my "careers" in both endeavors. It's strictly data that determines the categories. In terms of the Portage issue a few years ago: that was one of 3 schools from our first three years of the event that didn't get in and proved themselves to be a top 5 team the following season. They only returned 8 starters and went from being just inside the top 20 one year to top 5 the next. That's highly unusual. With that said...since we moved away from the "multiplier" to the current Category system, it's been much smoother to explain answers to questions and it's been a slight upgrade in accuracy (and Portage would have gotten in that infamous year had we been using what we use now). I've said this on a number of threads, but we're 30 for 30 in getting the following season's year-end top 5 from all 3 classes into the event with the Category system. We've also had at least 8 of the following season's year-end top 10 in each case. Until we start to fall off of this type of accuracy, it's hard to want to change much. I'd challenge any group of rankers to peruse season results a while and come up with that sort of one-year-in-advance success. Edited February 23, 2017 by maligned Wrestling Scholar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 I think if river forest and up were coming out of logansport their ssq count would be higher. I think having merrillville/portage in your regional eliminate a lot of wrestlers. Wrestling scholar I think Harrison has done a nice job. But losing boiler elite hurts the area Also Delphi and mccutcheon being down hurts If Harrison came out of calumet they would have less SSQ then hobart in my opinion. Picking the top 5 team isn't very tough let's predict now and i bet half of the board gets it. The top 5 Indy the problem it should be about getting the top teams there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaiderColfax Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 It's strictly data--based solely on the scores of all the dual meets and tournaments throughout the state. I orchestrate the categories and I wrestled and officiated more matches involving Merrillville/E Chicago semi-state teams than any other in my "careers" in both endeavors. It's strictly data that determines the categories. In terms of the Portage issue a few years ago: that was one of 3 schools from our first three years of the event that didn't get in and proved themselves to be a top 5 team the following season. They only returned 8 starters and went from being just inside the top 20 one year to top 5 the next. That's highly unusual. With that said...since we moved away from the "multiplier" to the current Category system, it's been much smoother to explain answers to questions and it's been a slight upgrade in accuracy (and Portage would have gotten in that infamous year had we been using what we use now). I've said this on a number of threads, but we're 30 for 30 in getting the following season's year-end top 5 from all 3 classes into the event with the Category system. We've also had at least 8 of the following season's year-end top 10 in each case. Until we start to fall off of this type of accuracy, it's hard to want to change much. I'd challenge any group of rankers to peruse season results a while and come up with that sort of one-year-in-advance success. NEVER COUNT OUT PORTAGE! Lmao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 Picking the top 5 team isn't very tough let's predict now and i bet half of the board gets it. The top 5 Indy the problem it should be about getting the top teams there. Fair enough. If people don't think it's worth having a qualification process and group-think statewide voting would do just as well, it would save me a lot of time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Fair enough. If people don't think it's worth having a qualification process and group-think statewide voting would do just as well, it would save me a lot of time! Sometimes just trying to read your math gives me a headache, so I can only imagine how much work goes into all of it.... One question... what is considered an down the middle average regional? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts