Jump to content

Indiana's 'middle class' in wrestling


Ed Pendoski

Recommended Posts

I understand there is basically no reason for our varsity to wrestle "bad" teams even if they are in our conference so it's ok for JV or varsity 2 to wrestle. But I don't like when we wrestle 5 of our "studs" and then list it as a JV win. I feel that's just trying to belittle the other team. But I am an old school I guess. Lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is my two cents on the topic of why we shouldn't have classed wrestling.

 

For one our states population and wrestling depth does not compare to other surroundings states or powerhouses. Implementing a class system would sort of ruin the competitive nature and excitement our state wrestling tournament brings upon us. In my opinion, the key to establishing a powerhouse program starts from the youth scene. You see all of these top 10 programs, and all you have to do is look at their youth programs. The best teams and the ones who can compete have a steady balanced youth program. For example, Avon has had their youth program rolling with these last couple incoming classes in '19 and '20 that grew up wrestling together on the youth scene. You also throw that in with training at contenders. This is the prime reason why they are on the rise. All the best coaches know this is the system to create a powerhouse program. You see brownsburg is just now starting to rise on the youth scene as well as warriors of Warren Central. This also shows in the smaller classes as well. Shennandoah has had that same group of boys, along with a great youth club that has allowed them be able to compete with the states best no matter how big or small their school is.

 

From the how do we get this middle class to rise, it's got to be summer wrestling. With the rise in private clubs in Indiana, there are plenty of oppurtunities between Contenders, Indiana Outlaws, CIA, Indy pride, etc. if Indiana as a whole wants to become better, we must talk to these kids in competing and training as much as possible in the offseason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was one of these kids back in the late 80’s. I was behind kids that ended up being runner-up, state qualifier, and I believe placed 5th. This was the kid at my weight, down a weight and up a weight. I ended up wrestling ½ my 10th grade year, because a group of kids were suspended for a party. I went 16-2 during that time and went to state 11 & 12th grade. JV back at that time was a bit stronger, but don’t believe I lost any JV matches. I think the most valuable and biggest benefit of time was the practicing with so many talented kids in the room.

I do find it odd, rather surprising that class supporters would support JV going to Varsity competitions. One of the biggest arguments for Class Wrestling is the notoriety of more kids having success in smaller programs and schools.  I can see the benefits of kids wrestling kids more of their skill set, but also can see the negative effects of a JV team beating up on a Varsity team.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was one of these kids back in the late 80’s. I was behind kids that ended up being runner-up, state qualifier, and I believe placed 5th. This was the kid at my weight, down a weight and up a weight. I ended up wrestling ½ my 10th grade year, because a group of kids were suspended for a party. I went 16-2 during that time and went to state 11 & 12th grade. JV back at that time was a bit stronger, but don’t believe I lost any JV matches. I think the most valuable and biggest benefit of time was the practicing with so many talented kids in the room.

I do find it odd, rather surprising that class supporters would support JV going to Varsity competitions. One of the biggest arguments for Class Wrestling is the notoriety of more kids having success in smaller programs and schools. I can see the benefits of kids wrestling kids more of their skill set, but also can see the negative effects of a JV team beating up on a Varsity team.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The top ten % is NOT going to change. This is not a class wrestling topic, although it is inherently hard to keep it out of the conversation.

Do the majority of head coaches in IN see the benefit of best on best competition? Does that build programs across the board, or do the rich get richer?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When people are sending their jv or second string to tournaments. They are doing that either 1. Varsity has to many tournaments or matches thus having to send their second team. 2. To send their jv guys to a variety level tournament and get them good competition and prepared for the following year or in case of injury they are ready for competition.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When people are sending their jv or second string to tournaments. They are doing that either 1. Varsity has to many tournaments or matches thus having to send their second team. 2. To send their jv guys to a variety level tournament and get them good competition and prepared for the following year or in case of injury they are ready for competition.

It really doesn't matter why they do it, who cares for that matter. The simple fact is that they do...is that good bad or indifferent for Indiana?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I understand there is basically no reason for our varsity to wrestle "bad" teams even if they are in our conference so it's ok for JV or varsity 2 to wrestle. But I don't like when we wrestle 5 of our "studs" and then list it as a JV win. I feel that's just trying to belittle the other team. But I am an old school I guess. Lol

Monty:

 

If you want to talk about this, you can certainly come talk to me about it. I am probably the least likely person on our staff to want to belittle someone. We have valid reasons (at least by what is happening with rankings and the genius scores in practice) and I apologize if you think I would ever belittle someone. I will be more than happy to explain my decisions on how I enter results if you just ask in person.

Edited by leggin89
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think they should lift traveling restrictions and honestly get rid of some of these tournament restrictions. Bringing back team state forces the varsity line up of any team with a full schedule to be pulled from any tournament. Or suffer from not wrestling sectionals due to to many attended tournaments.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think some people project their concern on smaller schools and its somewhat condescending.  I am not even sure what you are considering JV - if Penn has 3 varsity teams, are the 2nd and 3rd teams JV, or is the fourth string JV?  Is it just semantics?  If the 2nd and 3rd team are competing at a varsity level, why are they not varsity?  If we are trying to grow the sport so that someday there are more coaches, referees, and families that want their kids to wrestle - wouldn't having 3 teams of kids from 1 school competing and having fun make the most sense?  That should spread outside school boundaries as kids graduate and move on in life and benefit more than just large schools.

 

A loss will not feel good no matter who beats you.  To me, we should stop trying to protect kids from losses and start teaching them that losses are big opportunities to learn and grow.  Losing to a 2nd or 3rd team kid could be more helpful than getting pinned in 30 seconds by the 1st team kid because they have a chance to compete with that kid at least.  Removing good kids from competition hurts both the 2nd team kids and the kids who would have lost to them because the kids who would have lost do not learn anything from winning a weaker tournament.

 

Coming from a small school just means kids have different goals sometimes.  Making it to state or winning regional means just as much to a kid from a small school as winning state does to other kids.  Its about reaching your potential and doing the best you can, not just where you place.  If you want to improve the competition in the state, don't take opportunities to compete away from either side.

Edited by doctorWrestling
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why not let teams enter multiple kids at the sectional per weight class, say 2 per weight?  Or do something like Southern Scuffle where they allow a team and a half (21 kids total per school in this case). NAIA allows multiple kids from the same school to compete at the same weight.  For team scoring, you could score just the top point earner to make things even.  This would eliminate the "JV" stigma and allow more kids to get the opportunity to compete, while filling out sectional brackets that are full of forfeits.  It would be much like how cross country or track has multiple entrants from the same school in the same event.

 

I believe this would create a win-win situation for programs of all sizes.  The "HAVES" with full JV squads would be able to keep those guys interested and working toward the goal of winning sectionals.  It also helps the "HAVE NOTS".  Imagine a team with 4 kids (a 106, a 113, and two 220's).  Currently, the two 220's need to have a wrestle-off, and the loser has to make a decision to either quit the team or give up 65 pounds at the sectional.  Under this new system, they both can wrestle 220.  Nobody has to be out-sized and nobody has to worry about quitting because they didn't win a wrestle-off.

Edited by RegionRoyalty
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think some people project their concern on smaller schools and its somewhat condescending.  I am not even sure what you are considering JV - if Penn has 3 varsity teams, are the 2nd and 3rd teams JV, or is the fourth string JV?  Is it just semantics?  If the 2nd and 3rd team are competing at a varsity level, why are they not varsity?  If we are trying to grow the sport so that someday there are more coaches, referees, and families that want their kids to wrestle - wouldn't having 3 teams of kids from 1 school competing and having fun make the most sense?  That should spread outside school boundaries as kids graduate and move on in life and benefit more than just large schools.

 

A loss will not feel good no matter who beats you.  To me, we should stop trying to protect kids from losses and start teaching them that losses are big opportunities to learn and grow.  Losing to a 2nd or 3rd team kid could be more helpful than getting pinned in 30 seconds by the 1st team kid because they have a chance to compete with that kid at least.  Removing good kids from competition hurts both the 2nd team kids and the kids who would have lost to them because the kids who would have lost do not learn anything from winning a weaker tournament.

 

Coming from a small school just means kids have different goals sometimes.  Making it to state or winning regional means just as much to a kid from a small school as winning state does to other kids.  Its about reaching your potential and doing the best you can, not just where you place.  If you want to improve the competition in the state, don't take opportunities to compete away from either side.

This post deserves a metal.  

 

This whole topic feels very condescending.  Trust me, no one up north feels sorry for the Jimtowns and the Prairie Heights of the world.  The reason these, and other, small schools are so successful is b/c they would never allow their kids to take any challenge lightly.  They would never prepare their kids differently for a JV tournament then they would a varsity tournament.  Shame on anyone who takes a varsity team to a tournament and lets them hang their heads for getting beat by a 'b-team' or 'JV' team at a varsity tournament.  When you start qualifying ever tournament and wrestler as varsity, JV, or a class system you are diluting the most important lessons our sport has to offer.  Wrestling forces you to focus solely on YOUR accountability.  There is NOTHING WRONG WITH FAILING.

 

This time of year I spend a great deal of time talking to generations of wrestlers about what the sport has meant to them and how it shaped their lives.  VERY FEW of those conversations take place with state champions.  However, the themes are always the same...  Wrestling taught us how to pick ourselves up (and each other) when you think you can't fight any more.  Wrestling taught us how to face challenges in life head-on.  That's what makes wrestlers different than any other athlete.  We don't care about seeds, rankings, varsity status, depth charts...  Wrestlers give it hell no matter what the odds, time left, or semantics.  I didn't get up Monday and say, "Boy feels like a JV tournament Monday, so I will give it a JV effort."  It doesn't make sense.

 

The real problem here is that some of us in this community are focused solely on the hardware and not how we can hard wire these young athletes to successfully deal with the adversity.  The real rewards at the end of each season is the measure of how much effort we have put into improving, not the color ribbon in our hand.  Making changes based on the thread would only change one of those rewards/results - the WRONG ONE.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why not let teams enter multiple kids at the sectional per weight class, say 2 per weight?  Or do something like Southern Scuffle where they allow a team and a half (21 kids total per school in this case). NAIA allows multiple kids from the same school to compete at the same weight.  For team scoring, you could score just the top point earner to make things even.  This would eliminate the "JV" stigma and allow more kids to get the opportunity to compete, while filling out sectional brackets that are full of forfeits.  It would be much like how cross country or track has multiple entrants from the same school in the same event.

 

I believe this would create a win-win situation for programs of all sizes.  The "HAVES" with full JV squads would be able to keep those guys interested and working toward the goal of winning sectionals.  It also helps the "HAVE NOTS".  Imagine a team with 4 kids (a 106, a 113, and two 220's).  Currently, the two 220's need to have a wrestle-off, and the loser has to make a decision to either quit the team or give up 65 pounds at the sectional.  Under this new system, they both can wrestle 220.  Nobody has to be out-sized and nobody has to worry about quitting because they didn't win a wrestle-off.

I very much support the idea of this, better to give kids more experience and fill a bracket than to just have forfeits, but what happens when multiple schools in the sectional have a quality kid at the same weight? How would it be decided which schools get to fill that spot?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I very much support the idea of this, better to give kids more experience and fill a bracket than to just have forfeits, but what happens when multiple schools in the sectional have a quality kid at the same weight? How would it be decided which schools get to fill that spot?

 

2 entries per weight per team.  The maximum bracket size would be the number of schools in the Sectional times 2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We (Prairie Heights) were fortunate to be able to get our "B" team/jv team some varsity matches this season, due to a couple varsity squads not being able to compete on somewhat short notice.

 

Our coaching staff, the wrestlers, and the parents were very excited for the opportunities to compete against varsity competition. Normally we wrestle 3 JV tourneys where the kids normally get 3-4 matches each. Typically our jv guys will get 10-12 matches a year.

 

In 3 of our 4 weeknight duals matches this year, we wrestled 0 jv matches, due to lack of wrestlers on the opposing schools. In our other dual (Homestead), we wrestled 13 jv matches, plus the Varsity dual which made for a great night of wrestling.

 

We have been very blessed with great numbers at PH, averaging 30-36 wrestlers the past several seasons. Our "B" team this year went 8-6 in the two varsity super duals this season. Most of our jv guys ended up getting 20+ matches between the jv tourneys and varsity duals they competed in.

 

I feel this was a great thing for us. As someone mentioned earlier, it helps prepare some of the kids for full-time varsity next year. A few a them got their butts handed to them along the way this year, too. I would love to be able to run 2 squads again next year, and enter them both into varsity action (as long as I feel we are able to compete) or even set up some jv duals/super duals for a "B" team.

 

Some of our jv guys are juniors and I think only getting them the 10-12 jv matches a year is not enough and kids begins to lose interest when they know they might only wrestle 3 weekends out of the entire season.

 

I still prefer our current system: single class state series and the classed team state duals format. I would hate to see us go to a classed individual state series/sectionals/regionals/etc.

 

If we can't beat the best of the best, so be it. We have had some great dual matches with Yorktown, Lafayette Harrison, Jimtown, Garrett, Goshen the last few years. We hate losing, but it sure is fun when we are able to pick up the win over schools of that size/caliber. They are great rivalries and we love that we get to wrestle the type of schedule we have.

 

Just my two cents as we are small school.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well said, Rookie78!  The point I am trying to emphasize here is that there is something special about winning any tournament.  The state tournament is, and always should be, the most special.  Adding more opportunities to call ourselves a state champ seems counter intuitive to me.  The most successful wrestling programs teach kids to set goals, work hard, and how take your lumps along the way. The program at Prairie Heights is, as you say, fortunate.  Instead, what I see is a program that emphasizes personal growth and accountability.  I have know idea how many state champions you produce out of that school.  More importantly, I see your kids go full tilt no matter what size the school your facing, JV or varsity.  I can list many programs in my area that have the same goals and teach the same lessons: Rochester, Goshen, Prairie Heights, Plymouth, Northridge, Jimtown...  Programs like these are wildly successful at raising a community of young men that will succeed b/c of their character.  When someone suggests that it would somehow make wrestling more relevant or attractive if we handed out more medals at state I get a little bent out of shape.  The most successful programs are the ones who empower kids to improve themselves everyday, work hard to meet your goals, and treat all challenges with the same respect.  

Edited by awood2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is my thought. As we are a 2a school, and a young wrestling program I don't like having jv teams at our varsity events. 1. It takes away from our guys to see other varsity wrestlers that might see them in sectionals , regionals so on. It helps us see where we are at. 2 it takes away from other schools to get in these tournaments. If it wasn't allowed at all... than it helps other schools that might not be a power house be able to compete.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe I came on a bit strong using the word condescending in a previous post.  Just think of it this way.  If your team had a chance to wrestle Blair Academy's second team or St. Ed's second team, wouldn't you jump at that opportunity?  Would your kids feel bad if they lost to their second team or would they just think they got beat and could learn a lot from it?  My opinion is that you are doing everyone a service by providing good kids for teams to wrestle and learn from and that your kids, their parents, and the whole program should enjoy the opportunity to wrestle more than a few matches a year.  Keep up the good work and keep growing the sport in any way you can.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If we don't allow for JV teams to participate in varsity tournaments or duals, how will the top 10% JV teams get any better? From what I have seen, JV teams from big 3A wrestling schools only have competitive matches with JV teams of other big 3A wrestling schools. If we restrict them from wrestling varsity, there are only a number of teams that they could have a competitive JV dual with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wrestling, at its core,is ad individual sport. Sure there are the big schools that have great programs, but there are also small schools that have great traditions and programs as wel. My point is, that having class wrestling might be good for he smaller schools as far as a team is concerned, but takes away from the indivials. I coach at a small school (a basketball school no less) and our long time coach was against class basketball. He wanted to be the best, by beating the best. First year they go to class basketball, our school wins a state title. Yeah it's nice to be called state champ, but are you really the best in the state? I think wrestling in Indiana has improved as far as talent over the past 15 years, but I think going to class wrestling is a step backwards. Just my opinion. Always great going to bankers life and seeing the no name kids from the middle nowhere upset kids from big wrestling schools. I think that's part of what makes indiana wrestling so exciting, and I think class wrestling would take away from that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wrestling, at its core,is ad individual sport. Sure there are the big schools that have great programs, but there are also small schools that have great traditions and programs as wel. My point is, that having class wrestling might be good for he smaller schools as far as a team is concerned, but takes away from the indivials. I coach at a small school (a basketball school no less) and our long time coach was against class basketball. He wanted to be the best, by beating the best. First year they go to class basketball, our school wins a state title. Yeah it's nice to be called state champ, but are you really the best in the state? I think wrestling in Indiana has improved as far as talent over the past 15 years, but I think going to class wrestling is a step backwards. Just my opinion. Always great going to bankers life and seeing the no name kids from the middle nowhere upset kids from big wrestling schools. I think that's part of what makes indiana wrestling so exciting, and I think class wrestling would take away from that.

 

 

Class wrestling = more kids from the middle of nowhere at state.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Class wrestling = more kids from the middle of nowhere at state.

 

That's a huge assumption that has never been supported by data. I haven't seen anyone provide a comparison of pre-class numbers to the post-class numbers in any state. So we are only assuming that classing wrestling will increase participation because we don't know any of the pre-class participation rates. All evidence to suggest it would have a major impact at schools with a general apathy towards wrestling has been anecdotal at best, and certainly subject to other interpretations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.