grappleapple Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Mid-Week duals get kids wrestling in front of their peers and community. People are much more likely to turn out to watch one round of matches on a Tuesday evening than they are to watch multiple rounds of wrestling (much of which will be kids they don't know) on a Saturday. This is especially true when that means driving more than 45 minutes. When young athletes get recognized and their hard work is observed by people they care about, they are more likely to begin and continue participating in an activity. Additionally, the coaches can take some responsibility over weight-management through the week. If people are adhering to the spirit of the weight-management rules as they are supposed to, making weight for the next class up to a degree that weight could still be made on Saturday should not be a consistent issue. People have a had the same complaints about teenagers since the beginning of civilization. Complaining that kids aren't tough enough doesn't really solve the problem. Some are tough enough, some are not. We need to make sure we have a system in place that makes the ones that are feel like their efforts are worth it. We can't expect them to appreciate the lessons of a sport that can't be truly understood until it is performed. The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. - Socrates Kids haven't changed. We just became grown ups. In theory, yes, mid-week duals will get more participation from fans. But that's not reality in most cases. I'd say in larger populated areas you can get a dual with two full-lineups and put on a pretty good show. But in lots of smaller populated areas the duals end up being a bunch of forfeits and then it's over. I know last year we went to a dual out of town and the other team - a 3A school, had five wrestlers. We paid the entry fee, got concessions and then before we could even finish the popcorn the dual was over. I don't think that helped promote anything. I love rivalries, and know those will help the sport's participation. But I still think in weekend duals we know who we might be up against and what good matchups there might be. It's never a guarantee. But I'd rather drive 45 minutes on a Saturday and maybe get three real matches than drive three times during the week and maybe get one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted December 16, 2016 Author Share Posted December 16, 2016 There is no cookie cutter solution and simply adding duals won't magically make wrestlers appear on your team. Coaches need to look into promotion of the sport in school and via social media(aka where kids are!). There are many ways to help participation and adding duals is just one piece of the puzzle. grappleapple 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grappleapple Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 I agree. I've always felt that the best way to increase numbers is any sport is by having an energetic coach that can connect with the athletes, but, more importantly - having athletes that talk their friends into participating. Y2CJ41 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsisson Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 (edited) I think developing a crowd and a more intense atmosphere for week night or even weekend duals (Quads possibly) would be great for the sport. My eyes were really opened to this just this year. We (Floyd Central) hosted our HHC Duals on Friday and Saturday, we typically only host the Friday portion of the event and its always a fun atmosphere. On Friday night 4 teams wrestle 2 duals. 1st Round Floyd vs Jeffersonville and New Albany vs Jennings County with the 2nd round be Floyd vs Jennings and Jeff vs New Albany. On Friday night our gym was packed with friends, family, and alumni from the 3 local schools. So much so that people were having trouble finding places to sit. The atmosphere was fun, loud and intense. I talked to my AD that night I said man the crowd was awesome and that we might be in trouble for Saturday with seating since 4 more teams were coming with JVs. 9am Saturday rolls around with the addition of 4 more teams and there was plenty of seating. Yeah those friends and people trickled in throughout the day but the atmosphere was not nearly as fun as the night before. I am with the everyone else in that I don't want to drop a weekend dual like calumet where my wrestlers have a chance to see multiple state ranked teams and individuals. But I do think there is something to be said for making wrestling more of a fan friendly sport and there has to be a happy medium. A weekend quad or tri against tough teams might be solution. I believe if we can get people to matches more consistently it would for sure help the numbers. Also as a coach when I try to think when my wrestlers get banged up and injured the most it is for sure after a long weekend and if it isn't the first its the 2nd or 3rd long weekend in a row we wrestle. Edited December 16, 2016 by bsisson throw45 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 I've never understood the "More Weeknight Duals to Increase Participation Numbers" argument. If it's about limiting matches and injury prevention, I totally understand that argument and support it 100%. From a participation standpoint, however, the weeknight dual is not a brand new concept that will suddenly make wrestling more popular and save the sport. I'd bet that nearly every single school that sponsors wrestling in this state already has at least one weeknight dual at home on the schedule. I've traveled the state watching wrestling over the years and can tell you that the packed gym of community members and peers that is so often described to watch a wrestling match is the EXCEPTION, not the rule. There are a few top notch programs in this state that can pack a gym when they wrestle another top notch program. There are even some smaller schools that do a nice job of promoting their matches and getting people to come out and support (i.e. Bellmont and Prairie Heights). However, most duals around the state are attended only by the parents of the athletes competing. I was at a dual last year that began at 6:00pm and was over by 6:09pm. There were 3 matches (all first period pins, 7 forfeits, and 4 double forfeits). You mean to tell me, that if we have more of those, that will raise participation at that school? Your point is well taken. I wasn't so much trying to say duals are "THE" answer as I was pointing out a logic that supports them. So to answer your question, no I don't think that if the only thing that happens is that we have more dual meets, then participation will rise. Perhaps I should have dedicated more of my typing to my actual point...complaining about how weak minded kids are doesn't usually go very far to solving problems. Does feel nice to get it of one's chest...but doesn't really resolve anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualwrestlingfan Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 The best atmospheres in Adams County are the rivalry duals (when teams are in full season mode). Of course Bellmont vs AC and AC vs SA (especially before Coach Myers went to Jay Co). Also the old team state Yorktown vs Bellmont matchups. Yes they're not quite as frequent for every week. You can mix in 4 team duals especially for conference like the ACAC does. I'd just limit the Super Duals to 1 or 2 fewer than currently. Although I'd love to blow up all the scheduling requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awood2 Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 I was there when he spoke about these topics and several points are being overlooked: Duals vs. tournaments - Families have said that they have an issue with driving an hour+ to sit in a gym on a Saturday to watch their child compete for 30 or less minutes. Uniforms - Students have expressed that participating in the singlet is a sole reason for never starting. In my opinion, whether it is a dual meet or a tournament we need to get better at promoting our own love for the sport. I think about the two high schools in my town and the most well attended contests in football and basketball. Football - inflatable tunnel entry for intros, a jumbo tron, fireworks, a tailgate... Basketball - honoring alumni, dance teams during breaks, shirt giveaways... At any other football or basketball game WITHOUT these things and the attendance is embarrassing. Now, when I think about the most packed wrestling meets I have ever been to: shirts tossed out when introducing athletes, DJ, spotlight, inflatable tunnel for intros, fog machine, cheerleaders... If this is what it takes to draw interest to our sport; to attract today's high school athletes then shame on us for not doing it state-wide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach McCormick Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 "Class Wrestling" is really the only meaningful maneuver at this point that will increase participation in our sport. bwoodjc89 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Is there any rule that forbids a high school dual from having an intermission midway through the weight classes? Similar to college? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualwrestlingfan Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 (edited) "Class Wrestling" is really the only meaningful maneuver at this point that will increase participation in our sport. Agree from a team perspective and as a minor part of the individual aspect. I'd love for the sport to have class and single class tournaments for both teams and individuals but the schedule won't work for that. Edited December 16, 2016 by casualwrestlingfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Agree from a team perspective and as a minor part of the individual aspect. I'd love for the sport to have class and single class tournaments for both teams and individuals but the schedule won't work for that. Faulkens mentions that spending all Saturday in a gym is discouraging kids. Ok, what about our state tournament. Its 4 weekends in a row sitting in a gymnasium. Maybe that hasn't something to do with the lack of participation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualwrestlingfan Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Faulkens mentions that spending all Saturday in a gym is discouraging kids. Ok, what about our state tournament. Its 4 weekends in a row sitting in a gymnasium. Maybe that hasn't something to do with the lack of participation. Put them on Friday nights or another night if that's the case. The old single class team state duals were on week nights besides using individual sectionals and the team state finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Back to just hard work. No Fun Allowed! Hate him or love him the perfect example is Coach Snyder. Remind me how good Brownsburgs program was before he got there. Or Portage before Vega. Or Penn before Harper. Etc. There are examples out there. It has more to do with coaching and adjusting to the times than trying to recreate an old vision! Coach McCormick, class wrestling? Really? I thought we were kindred spirits! throw45 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualwrestlingfan Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Back to just hard work. No Fun Allowed! Hate him or love him the perfect example is Coach Snyder. Remind me how good Brownsburgs program was before he got there. Or Portage before Vega. Or Penn before Harper. Etc. There are examples out there. It has more to do with coaching and adjusting to the times than trying to recreate an old vision! Coach McCormick, class wrestling? Really? I thought we were kindred spirits! All those coaches are phenomenal and make the sport better. However those schools used as an example in each have much larger selection pools. We need to grow the teams like Bluffton, Heritage, and Norwell(seem to be heading back in the right direction) where there has been less success as teams lately. We need the Southern Wells and South Adams to get even stronger and build off the success they've had. That's why I think Coach McCormick is right about class wrestling. I also agree with you about hardworking kids as well. It's a combination of both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach McCormick Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Back to just hard work. No Fun Allowed! Hate him or love him the perfect example is Coach Snyder. Remind me how good Brownsburgs program was before he got there. Or Portage before Vega. Or Penn before Harper. Etc. There are examples out there. It has more to do with coaching and adjusting to the times than trying to recreate an old vision! Coach McCormick, class wrestling? Really? I thought we were kindred spirits! Here is my experiment. Let's try this. In the same spirit that we treat the "team aspect" of wrestling in IN, let's take IHSAA football back to single class. Yes, that means small and mid-size public schools across the state will have to go through Carmel, Center Grove, Warren Central, (fill in the rest of the big schools here) to win a state football title. Heck, those smaller schools won't even win sectionals or regionals anymore if this is implemented! So how long do you think it would take for reality to set in for these small to mid-size football teams/schools? When the realistic hope of ever getting to shine in the limelight gets squelched, participation will dwindle. Here's something else I will remind you of (that has certainly been shared before). Ohio Wrestling (Classed) -- they have pretty darn good wrestling and participation there Illinois Wrestling (Classed) -- they have pretty darn good wrestling and participation there Pennsylvania Wrestling (Classed) -- they have pretty darn good wrestling and participation there Iowa Wrestling (Classed) -- they have pretty darn good wrestling and participation there Keep filling in the list from here. Galagore and throw45 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Cooper Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 Back to just hard work. No Fun Allowed! Hate him or love him the perfect example is Coach Snyder. Remind me how good Brownsburgs program was before he got there. Or Portage before Vega. Or Penn before Harper. Etc. There are examples out there. It has more to do with coaching and adjusting to the times than trying to recreate an old vision! Coach McCormick, class wrestling? Really? I thought we were kindred spirits! The coaches you mentioned have done a phenomenal job, no question, and I respect them a lot... but these programs weren't starting from scratch. Youth coaches at Brownsburg built up their club before Snyder arrived, Penn has a tremendous enrollment to draw from, and Portage has exceptional tradition from the Coach P days as well. I'm not downplaying what these coaches have done, these teams have accomplished great things, but these examples are far from the norm. From experience I can say it takes an unbelievable amount of work to start from essentially scratch and build up a program that can compete on a yearly basis. Even then a competitive team only goes so far. You have to put an additional amount of work in promoting your meets to increase attendance. Including elementary and middle schools in your meets will go a long way, but takes tons of leg work, planning, and persistence. I'm pretty confident in saying that adjusting scheduling rules to include more weeknight duals will not increase attendance nor participation levels. However, working at increasing attendance at your currently scheduled weekday meets COULD increase participation. We have 6 weekday dual meets on our schedule. Our JV kids are lucky if they get a match in 2 of those 6 meets. If parents new to the sport don't like sitting in a gym most of a day on a Saturday to watch their kid wrestle a couple matches, you can bet they like even less the 45 minute drive on a weeknight to sit in a gym for an hour and not see their kid wrestle at all. Coach McCormick, throw45 and Bruins2013 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warsawwrestling Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 (edited) Here is my experiment. Let's try this. In the same spirit that we treat the "team aspect" of wrestling in IN, let's take IHSAA football back to single class. Yes, that means small and mid-size public schools across the state will have to go through Carmel, Center Grove, Warren Central, (fill in the rest of the big schools here) to win a state football title. Heck, those smaller schools won't even win sectionals or regionals anymore if this is implemented! So how long do you think it would take for reality to set in for these small to mid-size football teams/schools? When the realistic hope of ever getting to shine in the limelight gets squelched, participation will dwindle. Here's something else I will remind you of (that has certainly been shared before). Ohio Wrestling (Classed) -- they have pretty darn good wrestling and participation there Illinois Wrestling (Classed) -- they have pretty darn good wrestling and participation there Pennsylvania Wrestling (Classed) -- they have pretty darn good wrestling and participation there Iowa Wrestling (Classed) -- they have pretty darn good wrestling and participation there Keep filling in the list from here. For the sake of discussion and because I like you, I will entertain this concept. But we cannot use football as an example because we don't take the best player from all those teams and take them to state. We could have very well moved to a different school before Kyle entered high school, but because of loyalty (and I think Kyle wanted to beat some of my records) we stayed at Warsaw. If we were classed it probably wouldn't have changed that, but I think in some cases people would look at what areas and see were to move to win a state championship. How many moves did we see this year. Whether it was to get better practice partners, go to a better team, or a legit move. I think people would be moving all over the place, but I'm sure this would settle down over time. So, not a very logical argument. I guess my biggest issue with this is Warsaw (as an example) is in these bigger schools. Warsaw has never won a football sectional and has a hard time filling a wrestling line up (probably since the late 80's). So I look at it as it doesn't solve our problem, nor our football programs problem since they have classed (and definitely since we bumped to 6a). I understand that classing isn't to solve all issues, but maybe look at how things are classed. Maybe even move schools around if they lose or win to improve growth in the programs. I mean if we are going to propose an idea, propose one that will solve the issue for the masses and not just for some programs. For example adjust a schools class off of regional qualifying (like the system from 4-5 years ago) if you have 3 classes and each have 8 schools for each regional, say 4 qualify to wrestle for regional and 4 don't. The 4 that don't qualify for regional go down a class the next year (if they are not at 1) and the 4 that win move up a class (if not already at 3). I know it's not that simple with kids graduating, but surely if there is going to be something proposed it should help out the majority of the programs to keep everyone competitive. I find it funny that now that Kyle is graduating I really don't have an objection to this idea. I know 4 years ago my opinion was totally different. Edited December 17, 2016 by warsawwrestling Coach McCormick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
throw45 Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 How about "wrestling day" in Indiana? Kinda like "basketball day" in Indiana which just took place and was championed by the IHSAA. Of course it will have to be organized and administrated by a separate entity like Indianamat or the IHSWCA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casualwrestlingfan Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 How about "wrestling day" in Indiana? Kinda like "basketball day" in Indiana which just took place and was championed by the IHSAA. Of course it will have to be organized and administrated by a separate entity like Indianamat or the IHSWCA. Like that idea very much. I also promoted the basketball day in Indiana as well on other boards. Glad HS football finally got put on Fox Sports for the finals a few years back. Baseball, volleyball, and softball should be as well (believe they are). We need to get as much exposure for all of our athletes and extra curricula members. Never know when that exposure could lead to college scholarships, Olympic opportunities, and etc. throw45 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts