Freestyle/Greco helping or hurting Folkstyle

[warsawwrestling]

I took the below from a site on Facebook called The Wrestling Insider.  It starts out asking which is better for MMA, than goes into even saying that Folkstyle is more realistic, comparable style to MMA. It goes into deeper comparison about whether Freestyle/Greco does more harm then good for Folkstyle.  At first I was like this is the dumbest thing I have ever heard, then as I read and thought of the reasons the writer had suggested I would say that I'm more 50/50 on the subject.  I truly believe that Freestyle/Greco improve "on your feet wrestling" through throws, defending throws, taking better shots and defending better shots. But does it hurt bottom wrestling? I use to think no, because it teaches you to hold a strong base and keep from getting turned, but it also teaches you to stay down. A wrestler doesn't get the bottom explosion up.  Is this why it is the lagging behind skill when most wrestlers move up to the next level (middle school, high school or college)?  Thoughts?

 

From The Wrestling Insider:

 

"I got to thinking about the direction that Freestyle has taken. And every year it feels more like a "game" and less like a "combat sport". This does not mean that it's not a seriously competitive activity that requires a lot of hard work to be good at. It is. But it's value to MMA in comparison to Folkstyle is just not there. I would place a lot of the "blame" for this issue on the ground and top game of Freestyle as compared to Folkstyle. If you defended yourself using the tactics of Freestyle in an MMA fight, you would find yourself TKOed.(Flattening out on your belly is not a viable MMA tactic, and no referee is going to stand you up in 10 seconds for sitting that way in an MMA fight) and there is a ton of the Freestyle top game that is equally useless in MMA. You can gator roll, leg lace, gut wrench to your hearts content in a fight and it's not really going to get you anywhere. Greco-Roman seems to be superior of the two olympic styles as a lot of time is spent pummeling in MMA, and the throws as Randy Couture proved are a great way to get someone down who may be good at sprawling. But the bottom/top game for Greco Roman is even more useless to an MMA fighter as it is more limited by the lack of legs.

 

I brought up Catch Wrestling a while ago as it used to be the Olympic sport alongside Greco-Roman. And some great MMA fighters brought it to MMA. Catch is Folkstyle plus the submissions that always existed in wrestling that you can still see shadows of in some Folkstyle holds.

I came to realize that I am starting to also have my doubts about the benefits of Freestyle for Folkstyle. My kids were both struggling with their bottom game this year and I was finally getting them to the point that they would actively try to explode up from the bottom the moment they were down. In Freestyle we encourage people to do the opposite. Get as flat (and vulnreble, by MMA standards) as possible as fast as possible. I remember thinking to myself that we were kind of working against their folkstyle one day when my son instinctively started fighting up from the bottom at a Freestyle practice and we had to "correct" him. They did learn some moves while doing Freestyle that helped them in their Folkstyle tournaments, but I also realized that we could of just worked on those moves for Folkstyle in the first place.

It is true that Freestyle wrestlers do generally have excellent takedowns but there really is nothing preventing the College wrestlers who went on to be MMA fighters from having equally good takedowns. I would say what is seriously different about it is that what goes on in a Freestyle match in comparison to what goes on in a Folkstyle match is what happens after the takedowns. And in this category Freestyle and Greco-Roman fall way behind Folkstyle.

 

Now, an important note:

1. I am not implying that the only purpose for wrestling is to get someone ready for MMA.

2. I am again not implying that someone who is an accomplished Freestyle wrestler is not a great athlete. Or that they don't work hard, etc.

But it seems to me that Freestyle wrestling, and at least the bottom/top portion of Greco-Roman is perhaps even counter-productive to someone who's goal is MMA."

Thoughts?

[Y2CJ41]

None of the three styles exactly translate to bottom work.

 

I'd say it's a wash on top work as well. You won't be using guts or laces from freestyle and greco, but you also aren't using halfs and wings either. Almost every wrestler will know how to choke someone on top though.

 

In all honesty, I think Greco on your feet translates the best to MMA. Very rarely do you see leg attacks as they easily result in your face being pounded in. Most of the good takedowns are either a double leg or an upper body initiated maneuver. 

[gogoplata89]

Don't you think the title of this should be "Which style is better for MMA"  not is fs/gr hurting folkstyle? I don't think any college coach in the country would tell you that fs/gr hurts folkstyle.

[warsawwrestling]

No because the post I took the quote starts off explaining MMA vs each style, but then starts comparing and contrasting Freestyle/Greco vs Folkstyle. Which is the area I was focused on. I have fun watching MMA, but think very few kids can make a good transition over.

Edited May 2, 2016 by warsawwrestling

[maligned]

Freestyle and greco bottom work do not translate well to folkstyle bottom work.  But that doesn't mean they "hurt" your folkstyle.  You spend the vast majority of the time on your feet in the international styles and the ultimate result is that you build skills that make you more well-rounded in your attacks when you come back to folkstyle.

[warsawwrestling]

Freestyle and greco bottom work do not translate well to folkstyle bottom work.  But that doesn't mean they "hurt" your folkstyle.  You spend the vast majority of the time on your feet in the international styles and the ultimate result is that you build skills that make you more well-rounded in your attacks when you come back to folkstyle.

Understand that and don't really disagree, but lets say both wrestlers are even on their feet.  Neither score in 1st period, then it really coms to top and bottom.  Even more so in wrestle backs when you lose a 1 in 1st period (high school).  Just found it interesting.  Like in the post I quoted, would be more beneficial, time efficient and money saving to teach those fundamentals that make Freestyle/Greco important.  Guess just looking at things a different way, mostly with current Freestyle/Greco issues.

[Ed Pendoski]

Thoughts like this is what got us looking into our Sunday night workouts.

 

In a conversation with another coach about freestyle in Indiana, the phrase, "the Olympics is the pinnacle of our sport" came up in our conversation. 

 

One could argue that UFC is the pinnacle of our sport.  In conversations in our office we talked about our middle school programs and wondered how many kids in our middle schools could name more than 2 guys that competed in the Olympic trials and then thought how many middle school kids could name 5 UFC guys.

 

When we brought up the idea of running a jiu jitsu workout and the kids were all about it.  Then we ran it across some other athletes in our school and they too were all about it. 

 

We will see how many our Sunday night workouts bring, but it looks like it's be accepted by the athletes in and out of our program.  Time will tell.

[warsawwrestling]

Thoughts like this is what got us looking into our Sunday night workouts.

 

In a conversation with another coach about freestyle in Indiana, the phrase, "the Olympics is the pinnacle of our sport" came up in our conversation. 

 

One could argue that UFC is the pinnacle of our sport.  In conversations in our office we talked about our middle school programs and wondered how many kids in our middle schools could name more than 2 guys that competed in the Olympic trials and then thought how many middle school kids could name 5 UFC guys.

 

When we brought up the idea of running a jiu jitsu workout and the kids were all about it.  Then we ran it across some other athletes in our school and they too were all about it. 

 

We will see how many our Sunday night workouts bring, but it looks like it's be accepted by the athletes in and out of our program.  Time will tell.

Kyle has been going off and on for the last few years. I also think this translates well, if not better then Freestyle/Greco.  I have had issues with kids that start wrestling with a BJJ background, but it seems to pay off well for those that have wrestled for years first.  This is actually the way that I thought I would probably head with our youth program (not trying to get into the other conversations about ISWA). So, I will be watching to see how this works out for you and may even check back with you later in a few months, if that is okay.