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Indiana Forfeit Data 2016


Y2CJ41

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NLCards, on 29 Jan 2016 - 1:07 PM, said:snapback.png

I'm not saying #2 and #3 are untrue. What I am saying is that they don't answer the question I asked. While they are both very good arguments for how class wrestling can help smaller schools, they don't answer, "Why do Kansas and Ohio (and now also Michigan) have LESS participation in wrestling at large schools than Indiana?" That is the question that I am interested in.

 

Because a lot of kids want to be professional video game players now. I mean it is even on TNT now...

 

Not only on TNT - you can get a college athletic scholarship for video gaming too:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2014/06/25/a-u-s-college-just-made-video-gaming-a-varsity-sport-heres-how-to-get-on-the-team/

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I still believe in my heart that the answer lies in building youth programs and continue pushing colleges to offer wrestling.

 

Instead of us trying to be other states, why don't we start looking at programs like Prairie Heights, Triton and some over these other programs that are having success. I'll give you a hint they both have good kid programs & middle school programs that teach the same things and work together with their High School program.

I feel like a lot that contributes to these programs is 1A team state. This gives a lot of guys more motivation to work in the summer and get their friends out to wrestle. I used to be in full support of a single class until I talked to my brother about team state. My brothers over 500 this season and poised to make regional but he never puts any work in the offseason. I brought up team state and how South Adams could get invited his senior year if he and the other talented sophomores worked hard in the offseason and improved a lot. His face immediately lit up and I could see a slight fire igniting in him. That's when it hit what class wrestling could do not just to better Indiana wrestling dept and talent wise, but the passion it could ignite when a small town kid realizes he can be a state champ.
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It is probably pretty difficult to find a state with the same exact structure as Indiana in terms of schools and school sizes. The best way to compare is to compare schools of the same size.

Quote the part on sample size, cut the rest of the post showing why the numbers aren't quite as telling as they might first appear. Classy.

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I added Wisconsin and surprisingly their small schools field bigger teams. 

 

However, I cannot find their ratio of fog machines and laser light shows so it is hard to tell if that is the reason they have more wrestlers.

 

Four for four so far...I'll let the haters pull some data now.

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I added Wisconsin and surprisingly their small schools field bigger teams.

 

However, I cannot find their ratio of fog machines and laser light shows so it is hard to tell if that is the reason they have more wrestlers.

 

Four for four so far...I'll let the haters pull some data now.

And their large schools field smaller teams -- ones again indicating that class wrestling helps small schools and hurts large ones. Pretty much status quo.

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I honestly don't think classed wrestling will help that much if at all.  The one thing I know it will do is ruin arguably the best wrestling state tournament in the country.  In my opinion wrestling already is classed and that is by weight class.  I really like the classed team state and I believe that is how it should be.  When the kids get out of high school and decides to do boxing, MMA, or Jui Jitsu will they still be in the classes they were put in during high school?  Nope they will be put in weight classes.  I have just always honestly felt classed individual state champion is a watered down state champ.  There should be only one.  If we were classed anticipated matches have more of a chance of not happening.  (Red vs Lee) 

 

The bottom line is wrestling isn't for everyone and shouldn't be.  We as coaches have to instill the love of it in the kids because when it is done right it is way too hard to stay committed without passion for it.

 

Maybe wrestlers are becoming a dying breed but I don't think school sizes have anything to do with it.

 

Just give me wrestle backs!!!

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I honestly don't think classed wrestling will help that much if at all.  The one thing I know it will do is ruin arguably the best wrestling state tournament in the country.  In my opinion wrestling already is classed and that is by weight class.  I really like the classed team state and I believe that is how it should be.  When the kids get out of high school and decide to do boxing, MMA, or Jui Jitsu will they still be in the classes they were put in during high school?  Nope they will be put in weight classes.  I have just always honestly felt classed individual state champion is a watered down state champ.  There should be only one.  If we were classed anticipated matches have more of a chance of not happening.  (Red vs Lee) 

 

The bottom line is wrestling isn't for everyone and shouldn't be.  We as coaches have to instill the love of it in the kids because when it is done right it is way too hard to stay committed without passion for it.

 

Maybe wrestlers are becoming a dying breed but I don't think school sizes have anything to do with it.

 

Just give me wrestle backs!!!

You keep talking like that, which I agree with, Joe is going to take away your admin powers!

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The data Y2 has presented suggests that small schools would be helped (not a huge difference, but I think other posters have highlighted some of the added benefits). However this represents about a third of the total student population, yet it seems to have a negative impact on the schools represented in the 2/3s majority. (can't read the implication of benefits in the #s without reading suggested detraction). All this suggests a negative impact total number of forfeits statewide.

 

It seems unlikely the IHSAA is going to act within the next few years even if there was consensus on the class issue. I think most agree that the class duals have been a good thing, and that had nothing to do with IHSAA. When they took away the state duals the coaches association stepped up and put together a great event.

 

Given its only the small schools that are at a disadvantage (I believe as a team and individual) in the one class environment. Why not create a small school state individual tourney? Run it in the weeks immediately following state as a 2 stage event with 4 regional sites at schools who would want to host finishing in an arena (Indy preferred). You could invite all teams in 1A & 2A and just use the 2 classes as is or even divide into 3 to accommodate the gaps at the high and low end. I know that entails a lot of work and funds, but I wanted to throw it out there.

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And their large schools field smaller teams -- ones again indicating that class wrestling helps small schools and hurts large ones. Pretty much status quo.

I'm glad you and Rassler are so concerned about big schools. You sound like Lafayette Jeff, Richmond, Marion, etc that complained about class basketball because they don't get to rack up 60+ sectional titles against their neighbors half their size.

 

Bigger schools can remedy their forfeit and participation tremendously easier than a small school. Big schools have the resources aka student athletes that smaller schools don't. When you have 350 boys running around the halls it is easier to find 25 that will wrestle than if you have 150 boys roaming the halls.

 

If we would go to a classed system and a big school coach wasn't racking up the sectional and regional titles like they were used to it shows how flawed the system really was. Beating up on the little guys is so much fun.

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The logic that classing "hurts" large schools is actually a point in the class system category.  If it is more difficult when large schools only wrestle each other (thus, unfair) isn't it even more unfair when the small schools are forced to compete (in the state tournament, not in voluntary mid-season matches) against the large schools? 

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The logic that classing "hurts" large schools is actually a point in the class system category. If it is more difficult when large schools only wrestle each other (thus, unfair) isn't it even more unfair when the small schools are forced to compete (in the state tournament, not in voluntary mid-season matches) against the large schools?

I don't think it's more difficult or unfair for large schools in a class system, I've not seen that argument made. However, it does appear that forfeits are up in large schools in a classed system. This thread is about forfeits, and shifting forfeits from small schools to large schools isn't a good way to solve the growing forfeit issue. It looks to me like the people in favor of that are only in favor of helping small schools not in favor of helping wrestling overall.

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Why is it more fair to have forfeits at a small school than at a large school? Wrestling is more in danger (of disappearing) at small schools than at large schools.

I don't think it's more fair. My answer would be the same if the tables were turned and large schools had lots of forfeits that we could fix but it would make the small school forfeits go up. I see no reason to overhaul an entire system to help one group which would in turn hurt another group. I'm much more in favor of solutions that can help wrestling as a whole. Nothing I've seen in the data presented suggests helping the system as a whole to me.

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I don't think it's more fair. My answer would be the same if the tables were turned and large schools had lots of forfeits that we could fix but it would make the small school forfeits go up. I see no reason to overhaul an entire system to help one group which would in turn hurt another group. I'm much more in favor of solutions that can help wrestling as a whole. Nothing I've seen in the data presented suggests helping the system as a whole to me.

Then you don't want to see it. Hurts large schools, yeah, logically sound. I mean keep it the way it is, it's doing so well. The system is failing and needs change.

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Then you don't want to see it. Hurts large schools, yeah, logically sound. I mean keep it the way it is, it's doing so well. The system is failing and needs change.

The system actually does appear to be doing at least as well as the states where Y2 has provided data in terms of total participation. Overall forfeits of the 5 states compared are lowest in Indiana. However, I never said, "keep it how it is" rather explore other options that help participation across the board, not just redistribute the forfeits to different schools. From he data provided, class wrestling does not appear to be the answer to increase overall participation.

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