WaltHarris Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 Great article in Win Magazine by Kyle Dake. I agree with much of what he has to say. Leadership needs to come from the NCAA on this issue. We should be wrestling both folkstyle and freestyle in college and high school. http://edition.pagesuite-professional.co.uk/launch.aspx?pbid=1c845371-e305-4a5a-b39a-a0e3e5cc859c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 It all comes back to the goals that we want. Most high school coaches have goals of coaching state champions, not Olympic champions or even national champions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaltHarris Posted May 29, 2015 Author Share Posted May 29, 2015 One could suggest a new model where we wrestle fs & fk would allow coaches two opportunities for having a state champion. 14 in fs and 14 in fk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted May 29, 2015 Share Posted May 29, 2015 This argument wont matter until the majority of Folkstyle only kids get through college Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 The idea that "folkstyle makes a lot of money" doesn't make sense to me. If rules were gradually changed over to freestyle, the old powers would still be the new powers in high school and college. The fan base would still be the same fan base. Casual fans would adjust quickly to rule changes because they weren't emotionally invested anyway. Serious wrestling programs and fans would adjust quickly because they all know freestyle already. Governing bodies of spring and summer wrestling would gradually switch back to all freestyle and greco like before and all the popular events would become freestyle instead of folk. Oh, yeah, and we'd soon be competing for Olympic and World titles at every weight and the star power of well-known college athletes would shine even brighter. Where do we lose money? WaltHarris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backtothemat Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 I don't think the casual wrestling fan likes to see a winner of a match with the score 1-1. Seeing tie scores in a freestyle tournament (like today in Akron) with someone advancing just does not make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 I don't think the casual wrestling fan likes to see a winner of a match with the score 1-1. Seeing tie scores in a freestyle tournament (like today in Akron) with someone advancing just does not make sense. If the NCAA or NFSHSA (high schools nationally) ever decided to move toward freestyle, they could do whatever they wanted with the rules--including incorporating overtime and other items that would fit U.S. audiences, high school concerns, or college concerns. The point is that we lag behind other nations because most of our kids grow up facing the majority of their most meaningful mat experiences fighting for folkstyle positions--not freestyle positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backtothemat Posted May 31, 2015 Share Posted May 31, 2015 Most mainstream sports don't have the myriad of rules changes like those that have been made in freestyle the last few years (since the Olympic debacle started). I think that alienates not only the casual but also many mainstream wrestling fan as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted June 1, 2015 Share Posted June 1, 2015 Most mainstream sports don't have the myriad of rules changes like those that have been made in freestyle the last few years (since the Olympic debacle started). I think that alienates not only the casual but also many mainstream wrestling fan as well. Almost all international sports have their sad stories to tell in terms of international governing bodies or dealing with Olympic committees or other sporting oversight. On a global level, dealing with cross-cultural political issues and the fallout is almost unavoidable. Also, many less mainstream sports like ours have been forced to make significant rules changes to fit Olympic packaging. None of that is the point, in my opinion. In my opinion, the point for those of us that grew up loving folkstyle, but that would like to see a change is this: we're only about 40 years into the "modern" era of folkstyle wrestling where it's genuinely been accessible and known in all areas of our country. If we made a change to freestyle now, by a mere 20 years from now, freestyle would already be a third of our modern wrestling history. We'd have 10 more Olympic champions to show for it, meanwhile putting the sport and its stars much more in the public conscience (and potentially launching many more of them into lucrative post-amateur careers that even further the sport's notoriety all the more). Even college kids would become much bigger stars during that life period because they'd already be wrestling at the top level internationally at 20 or 21 in some cases like other nations' top guys. And again about the rules concerns: high school and college wrestling would never be required to copy the myriad rules changes of UWW/FILA. (For example, high school could switch to freestyle rules and keep 15-point tech falls to extend mat time a bit. Then, if freestyle globally changed back to 1-point takedowns, for example, we wouldn't have to change with them). But by having the same core techniques and scrambles practiced for takedowns, exposure, turns, and pins for all kids from a young age, we would build ourselves into the best wrestling nation in the world. Smooth34 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaltHarris Posted June 1, 2015 Author Share Posted June 1, 2015 Almost all international sports have their sad stories to tell in terms of international governing bodies or dealing with Olympic committees or other sporting oversight. On a global level, dealing with cross-cultural political issues and the fallout is almost unavoidable. Also, many less mainstream sports like ours have been forced to make significant rules changes to fit Olympic packaging. None of that is the point, in my opinion. Amen! Just look at the FIFA fiasco this week as one of a number of examples. Is soccer going to decrease in popularity because FIFA is (and pretty much always has been) corrupt? No. People will still go to world cup games by the thousands. I don't think the casual wrestling fan likes to see a winner of a match with the score 1-1. Seeing tie scores in a freestyle tournament (like today in Akron) with someone advancing just does not make sense. We've had the exact same thing occur in folkstyle (with the previous OT ride-out rule) of a very long period of our history: "Maurer (43-1) was the champ in 2002 at 145 and at 130 in 2001 as a freshman and made it three in a row this trip in a dramatic 1-1 overtime victory on criteria over Mishawaka’s Alex Dolly (46-1) for the 171 pound championship." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 Until NFHS and NCAA decide to go to Freestyle Joe is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaltHarris Posted June 2, 2015 Author Share Posted June 2, 2015 Until NFHS and NCAA decide to go to Freestyle Joe is right. I think that is an accurate statement. I just hope for more of the wrestling community to push the issue with NFHS and NCAA. Really, imop it's more the NCAA. If the NCAA goes to both fs and fk, then I believe high school will follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 Why is greco being left out? If we want to do better in the international competition, shouldnt we be focused on the international styles? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGenerealsDad Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 Just a couple counter points for consideration. How are you going to sell FS or Greco to school systems who already worry about insurance costs? Hey come watch this kid who started wrestling last month try to 5 point throw everyone OR come watch your son who just started wrestling get launched as high as possible. I think folkstyle is just safer in general and less shocking to parents/kids who aren't familiar with it. Freestyle works for advanced kids who are generally the only ones doing it. It seems like the US has been competing pretty well at the cadet level internationally as of late. Maybe US wrestlers are advancing in technique (note all the high school kids knocking off senior level wrestlers) because technique is more available through the interwebs or because more young kids are training with elite senior level guys. Maybe we are catching up already and wrestling folkstyle isn't that bad in high school after all. Maybe we just need to change how we train to the way the other countries have been forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 Just a couple counter points for consideration. How are you going to sell FS or Greco to school systems who already worry about insurance costs? Hey come watch this kid who started wrestling last month try to 5 point throw everyone OR come watch your son who just started wrestling get launched as high as possible. I think folkstyle is just safer in general and less shocking to parents/kids who aren't familiar with it. Freestyle works for advanced kids who are generally the only ones doing it. It seems like the US has been competing pretty well at the cadet level internationally as of late. Maybe US wrestlers are advancing in technique (note all the high school kids knocking off senior level wrestlers) because technique is more available through the interwebs or because more young kids are training with elite senior level guys. Maybe we are catching up already and wrestling folkstyle isn't that bad in high school after all. Maybe we just need to change how we train to the way the other countries have been forever. I disagree that we are catching up. Results from the Senior World Championships in 2014 show that out of a possible 96 medals the USA won 6. As a team we placed 10th in FS, did not place in the top 10 in GR and placed 3rd in Women's Wrestling. 3 of the 6 medals came from the women. In FS we had 2 bronze and in GR we had only 1 bronze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eppertc Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 Folkstyle will never change, we will always have this style in the U.S. However, the Olympic wrestling committee is going to the NCAA committee in order to suggest a few rule changes related to Freestyle such as the push-out rule and taking out ride time in order to make wrestlers stay on their feet and create action. Ultimately Olympic coaches and most college coaches in my opinion believe that wrestling Folkstyle all year is "about as useless as a poopy flavored lollipop" -Patches O'Houlihan. Don't settle for taking your athletes to all these Folkstyle national tournaments after Flo Nationals, Folkstyle Nationals, and Senior Nationals end. In other words tournaments like Disney Duals, VA beach Duals, and Jazz town Duals are not helping our case in creating better international wrestlers. Indiana loves to go to these Folkstyle tournaments but IN is way behind IL, OH, and WI. If you look at the IN studs they all go to Fargo, JR or Cadet Duals, and Fila Cadet Nationals. Have your athletes attend camps, RTC's, and go win some freestyle & Greco national tournaments. WaltHarris and grecoref 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 (edited) I think folkstyle is just safer in general and less shocking to parents/kids who aren't familiar with it. Yes, but this is also true for high school's version of folkstyle compared to college's version of folkstyle because of how the rules are written, interpreted, and enforced for less physicality and risk of bodily harm. As I keep saying...rules are always adaptable to the nuanced needs of each governing body. Nobody is suggesting we need to bring an Olympic replica of freestyle into our high schools and middle schools. Edited June 2, 2015 by maligned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGenerealsDad Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 I guess I don't understand how you can change the rules to not be an Olympic replica and still think in some way it helps. To me it either includes the higher altitude throws for more points and mimics Olympic style, or you might as well wrestle folkstyle. It makes more sense if you are talking about push outs, but is that really where the other countries are beating us? I am not saying kids shouldn't wrestle free-style in the summer, I just don't think you are going to find a place for it during the high school season for the masses. Of course the Olympic coaches think you should wrestle freestyle. College coaches probably love it also because that's where the very best in the country wrestle. I am just saying anything you would think resembles freestyle wrestling probably won't work in high school where you are begging football players to try it for a letter. Some have mentioned both free style and folkstyle during the high school season - can you imagine the confusion parents would have with that? Most can't wrap their mind around folkstyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 At the Schoolboy and below levels the high amplitude throws are illegal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 At the Schoolboy and below levels the high amplitude throws are illegal. A full, straightback suplay from a rear standing position, or the straightback salto to the head ● Slamlifting and returning an opponent to the mat with unnecessary force. May be committed by a contestant in either the top or bottom position, as well as during a takedown. A wrestler who lifts his/her opponent off the mat is responsible for his/her safe return. When a contestant is returned to the mat with undue force, so the upper half of his/her body contacts the mat first, it is a slam We have enough problems with referees interpreting the rules incorrectly. I don't need you jumping on the bandwagon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLCards Posted June 2, 2015 Share Posted June 2, 2015 High school and lower level wrestling should cater to the masses not just to the elite -- that means folkstyle. My opinion is that if we changed to freestyle, wrestling would be a less popular sport in the US. Sorry, but only a VERY small percentage of successful wrestlers and an even MUCH smaller percentage of all wrestlers are ever going to wrestle on the international or even national stage. Catering to the few elite at the expense of the masses is a bad idea. Thor and backtothemat 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogoplata89 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Aaron Pico and Henry Cejudo should be the example of Freestyle focus paying off. Cejudo, was an Olympic champ, and Pico is already competing on the senior level and winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 If thats your goal go that route.....a lot of kids will wrestle in High School and thats it of the small precentage that will go to college an even smaller precentage will continue to wrestle after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaltHarris Posted June 3, 2015 Author Share Posted June 3, 2015 Ultimately Olympic coaches and most college coaches in my opinion believe that wrestling Folkstyle all year is "about as useless as a poopy flavored lollipop" -Patches O'Houlihan. Best. Line. Ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) High school and lower level wrestling should cater to the masses not just to the elite -- that means folkstyle. My opinion is that if we changed to freestyle, wrestling would be a less popular sport in the US. Sorry, but only a VERY small percentage of successful wrestlers and an even MUCH smaller percentage of all wrestlers are ever going to wrestle on the international or even national stage. Catering to the few elite at the expense of the masses is a bad idea. I guess I'm missing the part where you have to be an elite level wrestler to be good at freestyle or Greco. Don't you also have to be an elite wrestler to be good at folkstyle? Edited June 3, 2015 by grecoref WaltHarris 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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