IndyDog Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 1. Who will win the team title? It looks like Cathedral has as good of a chance as any team. 2. Does anyone else see this as an indictment of the way the IHSAA awards the team state trophy, since Cathedral did not even win its sectional or regional? This is not a knock on Cathedral, so don't hate on me Cathedral people, but I am just proposing a discussion on whether there is a better way to award the team trophy. Obviously, I think the best way is by a dual tournament like they used to do, but since that is no longer an option, is there some other format that would be more likely to award the actual best team? Could we add the points from all 4 rounds of the state tournament series? Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Adding all the points from each level would be akin to adding all the points from each football game. That would be horrible. combatspeed06 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edb41 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Maybe they could have like an actual dual meet between regional or semi state teams to determine best overall team, that would be neat Edited February 17, 2015 by edb41 zachpierson, sslaymon and toe shoes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 They could score the first round of the state tournament and add those points. I never did understand why we do this in Indiana. toe shoes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrestlenewbie Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 There is absolutely no good way to award a team title in the current format, because no one has their team there. Anything they do will be a bad option. I think it is a waste to worry about the best bad option. Y2 compared one of the alternate proposals (adding points from all four rounds) to adding up the points a football team scores in the season. The current format is akin to picking the best team by adding up who has the most all-staters on their team. There is no getting around the fact that the current format assesses the team based on the performance of a few individuals. That is the antithesis of the team concept. So trying to make marginal adjustments around that core concept is meaningless. Accept that the team title means little in the current format and lobby for a true team championship with whole teams represented. They do it next door in Illinois, why not in Indiana? base and JimR658 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countin_the_lights Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Having the team duals during the individual tournament just adds the risk of getting injured. wildcatpatriot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrestlenewbie Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Having the team duals during the individual tournament just adds the risk of getting injured. In Illinois they do it around rather than during. They had regionals for team already (in their hierarchy regionals come before sectionals and there is no semi-state), but then they pause the team race for the individual series, which last three weeks instead of four. Next week, after individual titles are determined, they resume the team series with sectionals and state on consecutive weekends. Edited February 17, 2015 by wrestlenewbie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fabio Jr. Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Having the team duals during the individual tournament just adds the risk of getting injured. There is always a risk of getting injured...better not practice this week...just in case munges, PatParham, combatspeed06 and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaWrestlingGuy1 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Cathedral has had plenty of amazing dual meet squads that could have won in the old format (see 80s and early 90s). Cathedral lost some heartbreakers in this very format in '86 and '88. Team fight looks like Penn vs Cathedral. Key matches are Wildebrandt vs Turner and Mammolenti vs. Harvey (though both have quite a battle in the semis). Penn has some sweetheart draws. 152 is about the weakest weight and Swank can do some damage. I see Penn w 2 or 3 in the finals. I see the Irish placing all 6 with 2 being Top 4 and 3 finalists. Home school colored shades. If we win back-to-back, I will drink heavily and celebrate the years of near misses. We have to have had the most Top 5 squads in the last 50 years without titles. Yorktown could do damage, but I don't see more than 1 finalist. EMD draws are awful. Perry could be top 5 if Elliott in the finals. Portage has a shot at top 5. And, Merrillville w two champs. Anyone else w a shot, interested to hear. 5 of Cathedral's 6 finalists are back next year. Future is bright for the Irish. Let's get another, lads. Edited February 17, 2015 by IndianaWrestlingGuy1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Warren Central has a salty squad. I wouldn't count them out either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaWrestlingGuy1 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Ahh, right. And Warren though I don't think they have a champ. A sneaky 106 and a finalist in Morrow. Another team of bad draws Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I could see Yorktown with finalists at 145, 170, and 195. They also have a good chance at placing at 138, 152, and 182. Don't count then out this weekend. Berkible at 152 beat Garman last week and I wouldn't be surprised to see him upset Swank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 There is absolutely no good way to award a team title in the current format, because no one has their team there. Anything they do will be a bad option. I think it is a waste to worry about the best bad option. Y2 compared one of the alternate proposals (adding points from all four rounds) to adding up the points a football team scores in the season. The current format is akin to picking the best team by adding up who has the most all-staters on their team. There is no getting around the fact that the current format assesses the team based on the performance of a few individuals. That is the antithesis of the team concept. So trying to make marginal adjustments around that core concept is meaningless. Accept that the team title means little in the current format and lobby for a true team championship with whole teams represented. They do it next door in Illinois, why not in Indiana? It's not quite apples to apples, but an individual tournament is how the NCAA rewards a team title in wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogoplata89 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 It's not quite apples to apples, but an individual tournament is how the NCAA rewards a team title in wrestling. And nobody seems to have a problem with calling them the true champion. A lot of D1 coaches don't even want to go to national duals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Heres the Scholars handicapped odds of the Team Race: Penn: 2-1 ( This is their race to lose. They got the horses in place, but have to execute. Last year they lost it in first round and cant afford to do again. They realistically could have 5 guys in the finals. (113, 152 -I like Swanks draw, 170, 182, 220) and Christman at HWY will place and has some potential upset points. Cathedral 5-2 - They could beat Penn, but would have to run the table and maybe get some help. I see 3 in the finals with 2 champs. Probably have 5 placers. Im expecting some drama in close team race, but I think Penn has a little more cushion. Yorktown 8-1: They have the most wrestlers and I think will have the most wrestlers place, but most will be down around 6-8. Should have one in the finals at 145. Im saying 3rd at 170. They will have to pull some big upsets to catch up with Cathethedral and Penn. Im not saying they cant do it. Mater Dei: 10-1 They got the Lee's and I have them both in finals and at least one champ. They probably place low at 145. But the rest of their draws are tough and I dont see enough points to catch up with Penn and Cathedral. Perry Meridian: 20-1- They didnt get enough guys through, James, UK and Tonte will do some damage, but enough to win. Merillville 20-1- I can see Covaciu and Streck in finals. Mabye even Johnson and Delapena place but not enough to win like Perry. Portage: 22-1 : I see two guys in the finals at 126 adn 145, but thats pretty much it. These guys are a year away from competing for the title. Warren Central 22-1: I could see 5 guys place, but not higher than 7th. Upset potential is there, but they would have to stand on their heads to win. Dark Horse: Crown Point- they have 5 sold guys that can place. If they can pull a few upsets together and run the table, they could really surprise some people. Their a long shot, but you never know. Edited February 17, 2015 by Wrestling Scholar munges and wildcatpatriot 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The teams in the individual race are also the teams that competed at Team State. Our best teams seem to be the top individual scorers as well.... Penn, PM, Yorktown and EMD all have legit chances of winning and all represented very well at Team State. The emphasis that we have placed on team development has eliminated the days that 2-3 stud wrestlers will win you a state title. Our top teams are all sending 4-8 wrestlers to state every year now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluemonster Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Wrestling is BOTH team and individual. So, if the Irish win the title this weekend, (IMO) they are the champs of the individual and EMD are the team champs. Based on state duals back in January. SIACfan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoMD Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 1. Who will win the team title? It looks like Cathedral has as good of a chance as any team. 2. Does anyone else see this as an indictment of the way the IHSAA awards the team state trophy, since Cathedral did not even win its sectional or regional? This is not a knock on Cathedral, so don't hate on me Cathedral people, but I am just proposing a discussion on whether there is a better way to award the team trophy. Obviously, I think the best way is by a dual tournament like they used to do, but since that is no longer an option, is there some other format that would be more likely to award the actual best team? Could we add the points from all 4 rounds of the state tournament series? Just a thought. All a wrestling team needs is 3 studs and it can result in a state championship. This happened all the time back in the days. No real team concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frigginhurts Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 absolutely ridiculous how we declare a champion. we had it right before then got rid of it...how backwards is that? and high school isn't the same as college. ontherise219 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbomb Turk Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 In Illinois they do it around rather than during. They had regionals for team already (in their hierarchy regionals come before sectionals and there is no semi-state), but then they pause the team race for the individual series, which last three weeks instead of four. Next week, after individual titles are determined, they resume the team series with sectionals and state on consecutive weekends. In Illinois they will wrestle their team sectionals next Tuesday night and that will determine the teams that will participate in the State finals which will take place that Saturday only 4 days after the team sectional. Indiana could do the same thing with our regional champs meeting the week after our individual finals. Its a good idea but lets not hold our breath . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrestlenewbie Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 In Illinois they will wrestle their team sectionals next Tuesday night and that will determine the teams that will participate in the State finals which will take place that Saturday only 4 days after the team sectional. Indiana could do the same thing with our regional champs meeting the week after our individual finals. Its a good idea but lets not hold our breath . even better. Except the breath holding part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) And nobody seems to have a problem with calling (the NCAA individual tourney champ) the true champion. A lot of D1 coaches don't even want to go to national duals. That's because the NCAA uses 32-man brackets with full wrestlebacks and the top teams have their full teams there (more than 1/3 of D1 guys qualify). If we had 3 classes with 32-man, full-wrestleback brackets in all 3 classes, then it would be equivalent. If that's the format we had, the team champs would often be the same as the duals champs since all 14 guys would impact the team score for most good teams. We'd need like 6 days, but I would have no problem saying winners of tournaments like that are the team champs. Edited February 18, 2015 by maligned bog190 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogoplata89 Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 That's because the NCAA uses 32-man brackets with full wrestlebacks and the top teams have their full teams there (more than 1/3 of D1 guys qualify). If we had 3 classes with 32-man, full-wrestleback brackets in all 3 classes, then it would be equivalent. If that's the format we had, the team champs would often be the same as the duals champs since all 14 guys would impact the team score for most good teams. We'd need like 6 days, but I would have no problem saying winners of tournaments like that are the team champs. Good point, they also don't have to deal with "death draws' like we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frigginhurts Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 Good point, they also don't have to deal with "death draws' like we do. and they actually seed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maligned Posted February 18, 2015 Share Posted February 18, 2015 That's because the NCAA uses 32-man brackets with full wrestlebacks and the top teams have their full teams there (more than 1/3 of D1 guys qualify). If we had 3 classes with 32-man, full-wrestleback brackets in all 3 classes, then it would be equivalent. If that's the format we had, the team champs would often be the same as the duals champs since all 14 guys would impact the team score for most good teams. We'd need like 6 days, but I would have no problem saying winners of tournaments like that are the team champs. It wouldn't be impossible to do something like this, actually. There could be 8 sectionals of 12-13 teams per class one Saturday. The following Friday/Saturday could be the 1A state finals at New Castle or Center Grove or some other somewhat centrally located large high school facility, with the 2As and 3As off. Then, the 3rd weekend could be a Friday/Saturday all-day, both days 2A/3A extravaganza at Banker's Life. We could even use the 4th weekend to bring together the top 8 scoring teams from each class for a duals state championship, just for good measure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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