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How would class wrestling work in Indiana?


decbell1

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The NCAA has separate divisions based on the school, not the sport. You can have a small D1 school. It is also widely known that a D2 champion is far less superior to a D1 champion. Also, athletes usually choose where they want to go. If an athlete is good enough to win in D1 he is not going to choose to go to a D3 school.

Tyrell fortune?
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The NCAA has separate divisions based on the school, not the sport. You can have a small D1 school. It is also widely known that a D2 champion is far less superior to a D1 champion. Also, athletes usually choose where they want to go. If an athlete is good enough to win in D1 he is not going to choose to go to a D3 school.

Its also not all about wrestling. Wrestlers choose schools for majors as well. Chad Red may be recruited by Penn State but might pick Manchester if he wants to be an accounting major. There's also just preferences to certain schools. Riley Lefever could be a starter at Purdue but chose to wrestle with his brothers at Wabash.
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The NCAA has separate divisions based on the school, not the sport.  You can have a small D1 school.  It is also widely known that a D2 champion is far less superior to a D1 champion.  Also, athletes usually choose where they want to go.  If an athlete is good enough to win in D1 he is not going to choose to go to a D3 school.

 

Not true, look it up. NCAA classifications are based on sports, number sponsored as well as other criteria. Basically, more money is needed for Div 1 which is likely why they are normally large schools. Just like larger public schools normally have more money.

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The NCAA has separate divisions based on the school, not the sport. You can have a small D1 school. It is also widely known that a D2 champion is far less superior to a D1 champion. Also, athletes usually choose where they want to go. If an athlete is good enough to win in D1 he is not going to choose to go to a D3 school.

You don't think the NCAA divisions are based off size/budget/sports offered? I think you better look closer

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Not true, look it up. NCAA classifications are based on sports, number sponsored as well as other criteria. Basically, more money is needed for Div 1 which is likely why they are normally large schools. Just like larger public schools normally have more money.

Let me clarify.  The NCAA does not separate divisions based on whether or not a school can fill rosters for sports.  Meaning you can be a D1 school and still be small and have a good sports program.  You can also be a D1 school and completely suck (i.e. IU).  There are small D1 schools out there with less athletes and less money that can compete with the best out there.

You don't think the NCAA divisions are based off size/budget/sports offered? I think you better look closer

I didn't say that.  

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Let me clarify.  The NCAA does not separate divisions based on whether or not a school can fill rosters for sports.  Meaning you can be a D1 school and still be small and have a good sports program.  You can also be a D1 school and completely suck (i.e. IU).  There are small D1 schools out there with less athletes and less money that can compete with the best out there.

I didn't say that.

 

Wow, look it up. There are contest and participant minimums for each sport. Meaning roster minimum. Don't recall filling rosters as a reason to class Wrestling in Indiana anyway.

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I personally hate the idea of classing any individual sport. The size of the school, in my opinion, has little to do with results in individual sports. Blue River, one of the smallest schools in the state, had a gymnastics state champion. Most of the individuals that compete at the elite level aren't just working with their school team anyway. They train elsewhere and make sure they are challenged by going to national tournaments, etc. There is no need to change a system that provides such an awesome championship event. I would probably never go to a small class state final, but I'd root like heck for a kid from a smaller school to upset maybe a favorite from a bigger school.

Also, just because a school may have large enrollment doesn't mean it has a large program. Many of the larger schools in the state still have trouble fielding a full 14 man roster.

And of course, you have a wrestler who might be the best in the state, and he has to compete in the smaller class and he will always wonder if he could have been the true champion.

Classing a team sport is great, but not an individual sport. Don't ruin something that works well already.

There are certainly better ways to promote the sport - if that's the idea. Call and complain to local newspapers about coverage of wrestling. Talk to people in your town and encourage them to go to a match and support your local school. Once the sport starts getting deserved publicity, and a fan base, competitors will fall in love with it and want to give it a try.

My two cents worth

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I personally hate the idea of classing any individual sport. The size of the school, in my opinion, has little to do with results in individual sports. Blue River, one of the smallest schools in the state, had a gymnastics state champion. Most of the individuals that compete at the elite level aren't just working with their school team anyway. They train elsewhere and make sure they are challenged by going to national tournaments, etc. There is no need to change a system that provides such an awesome championship event. I would probably never go to a small class state final, but I'd root like heck for a kid from a smaller school to upset maybe a favorite from a bigger school.

Also, just because a school may have large enrollment doesn't mean it has a large program. Many of the larger schools in the state still have trouble fielding a full 14 man roster.

And of course, you have a wrestler who might be the best in the state, and he has to compete in the smaller class and he will always wonder if he could have been the true champion.

Classing a team sport is great, but not an individual sport. Don't ruin something that works well already.

There are certainly better ways to promote the sport - if that's the idea. Call and complain to local newspapers about coverage of wrestling. Talk to people in your town and encourage them to go to a match and support your local school. Once the sport starts getting deserved publicity, and a fan base, competitors will fall in love with it and want to give it a try.

My two cents worth

That's the best way to put it. Excellent post.
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How do you explain small schools who have success, and have good numbers?  Everyone always wants to paint the picture that classed wrestling is a cure all for small schools, I don't see that as being the case at all.  If we classed I don't believe that we would see a dramatic change in the number of participants at certain schools, some schools will still have a good number of kids, some still wouldn't.  All classing would do is make it easier to get to state; nothing more, nothing less.  It would still be celebrated, and be a big deal, but I don't see it changing the level of small school wrestling as a whole all that much.

 

On a separate note would we also have a separate class for schools with less then five kids, or should they count for this classification?

Yes, some small schools have success but not much at the state tournament.    The highest placing 1A school at the state tournament was Cascade last year that tied for 40th with 2 points.   Less than 5 % of state qualifiers were from 1A schools.    You have a few bright spots like Pleasant Heights or Oak Ridge.   And you might get a kid from a small school to place once in a while.   But for these strong 1A schools, theres a handful of schools comtemplating to shut their program down.   Did we lose four programs last year.  Is that a trend or an anomaly?      I have some friends in the wrestling community in "Classed States" amd they think having one class is ridiculous, but what people grow up on is what they like.

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Wouldn't you also have to factor in the number of students in the larger schools based on the number of students in the smaller schools? Of course a Ben Davis is going to have more chances to get a kid at state than, say, a Tri High. The numbers are self explanitory. That doesn't mean a Tri High kid can't work his butt off, and be one of the 5% to be a state placer. If everyone is competing for the same title - and that's the draw of the sport, why would you want to give a kid who isn't as good, as say a regional qualifier in the big class, a state title in a small class. Or, vice versa, you have a state champion in the small class that could have done the same in the big class, but under the new system doesn't get a chance.

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It should mean a little less. You can't be the champion if there are 2 other people also calling themselves the champion. The Olympics doesn't give out 3 gold medals because some countries have smaller populations.

Amazing how many kids call themselves state champions in these flawed states. I can't believe people don't call them out on it more.

 

I guess if we want to be like the Olympics we should also have 5 weight classes. I didn't realize we wanted to be like the Olympics.

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Amazing how many kids call themselves state champions in these flawed states. I can't believe people don't call them out on it more.

 

I guess if we want to be like the Olympics we should also have 5 weight classes. I didn't realize we wanted to be like the Olympics.

These other state champions should at least have the courtesy to put an asterisk by the "State Championship Title".     Or maybe the Nebraska kids should say im the  " Nebraska classed State Champion".     Also another good point is 14 weight classes too many.

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These other state champions should at least have the courtesy to put an asterisk by the "State Championship Title".     Or maybe the Nebraska kids should say im the  " Nebraska classed State Champion".     Also another good point is 14 weight classes too many.

 

In my heart, I genuinely think you would feel different if it were you, your son, or an athlete you coached who was being called a "Nebraska Classed State Champion."

 

I coached with a fellow who was a state champion in Michigan, and I asked him what he would say if someone chided him about his classed state title.  He said his reply would be very simple.  He would say, "Well, what about you?  How many state titles have you won?"  And then he laughed.  Because classed or not, most people you run into their answer would be, "Zero." 

Edited by Galagore
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Wouldn't you also have to factor in the number of students in the larger schools based on the number of students in the smaller schools? Of course a Ben Davis is going to have more chances to get a kid at state than, say, a Tri High. The numbers are self explanitory. That doesn't mean a Tri High kid can't work his butt off, and be one of the 5% to be a state placer. If everyone is competing for the same title - and that's the draw of the sport, why would you want to give a kid who isn't as good, as say a regional qualifier in the big class, a state title in a small class. Or, vice versa, you have a state champion in the small class that could have done the same in the big class, but under the new system doesn't get a chance.

Are you saying that the small school kids that go to state don't work hard? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

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In my heart, I genuinely think you would feel differently if it were you, your son, or an athlete you coached who was being called a "Nebraska Classed State Champion."

 

I coached with a fellow who was a state champion in Michigan, and I asked him what he would say if someone chided him about his classed state title.  He said his reply would be very simple.  He would say, "Well, what about you?  How many state titles have you won?"  And then he laughed.  Because classed or not, most people you run into their answer would be, "Zero." 

Galagore,

 

I think you missed Y2's and my sarcasm.   Actually,  I really am  a 2x state placer in a classed state bordering Nebraska.  And I never used the term "classed state placer" nor put an asterisk by it.  My son also wrestled in two different classed states but never placed.       

Edited by Wrestling Scholar
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How do you explain small schools who have success, and have good numbers?  Everyone always wants to paint the picture that classed wrestling is a cure all for small schools, I don't see that as being the case at all.  If we classed I don't believe that we would see a dramatic change in the number of participants at certain schools, some schools will still have a good number of kids, some still wouldn't.  All classing would do is make it easier to get to state; nothing more, nothing less.  It would still be celebrated, and be a big deal, but I don't see it changing the level of small school wrestling as a whole all that much.

 

On a separate note would we also have a separate class for schools with less then five kids, or should they count for this classification?

What small schools have "success" and what is your definition of "success?"

 

So you don't think more kids going to state or semi-state doesn't help a program? Say you start getting 8 kids every year to state and 3 kids to state every year. That won't help your program? On the same note a school without much success starts getting 3 kids to semi-state and a state qualifier every year, rather than one semi-state qualifier. Are you seriously saying that won't help a school's numbers...thus helping wrestling in the whole state?

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Galagore,

 

I think you missed Y2's and my sarcasm.   Actually,  I really am  a 2x state placer in a classed state bordering Nebraska.  And I never used the term "classed state placer" nor put an asterisk by it.  My son also wrestled in two different class states but never placed.       

 

Whew, good, I am glad I did.  But, man I had such a good point:}  Can't we just pretend like you were speaking literally?

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What small schools have "success" and what is your definition of "success?"

 

So you don't think more kids going to state or semi-state doesn't help a program? Say you start getting 8 kids every year to state and 3 kids to state every year. That won't help your program? On the same note a school without much success starts getting 3 kids to semi-state and a state qualifier every year, rather than one semi-state qualifier. Are you seriously saying that won't help a school's numbers...thus helping wrestling in the whole state?

That's how South Adams was few years ago but now we're struggling to fill a lineup. Even though we had success, no one cared enough to come out.
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I personally hate the idea of classing any individual sport. The size of the school, in my opinion, has little to do with results in individual sports. Blue River, one of the smallest schools in the state, had a gymnastics state champion.

Why haven't they had any wrestling state champions?

 

Most of the individuals that compete at the elite level aren't just working with their school team anyway. They train elsewhere and make sure they are challenged by going to national tournaments, etc.

In wrestling you must wrestle with your team, you cannot go train elsewhere during the season.

 

 

There is no need to change a system that provides such an awesome championship event. I would probably never go to a small class state final, but I'd root like heck for a kid from a smaller school to upset maybe a favorite from a bigger school.

 

 

That would be a travesty, but I'm sure your spot would be filled up, so no one would miss you.

 

 

Also, just because a school may have large enrollment doesn't mean it has a large program. Many of the larger schools in the state still have trouble fielding a full 14 man roster.

 

How many is "many?" 3A schools average less than a half forfeit per team.

 

 

And of course, you have a wrestler who might be the best in the state, and he has to compete in the smaller class and he will always wonder if he could have been the true champion.

 

 

He would be able to wrestle the top competition during the season at events like the Al Smith, Connersville, Mooresville, etc. Also he would be able to test himself against the whole state in offseason events like folkstyle/freestyle state or national events. If he was concerned if he was the "best" he would seek out that competition.

 

Classing a team sport is great, but not an individual sport. Don't ruin something that works well already.

 

 

With over 3 forfeits per team at the 1A level, not sure how this is "working."

 

There are certainly better ways to promote the sport - if that's the idea. Call and complain to local newspapers about coverage of wrestling. Talk to people in your town and encourage them to go to a match and support your local school. Once the sport starts getting deserved publicity, and a fan base, competitors will fall in love with it and want to give it a try.

My two cents worth

 

 

It's hard to get newspaper and media coverage when you take a few to regional and maybe a few to semi-state.

That's how South Adams was few years ago but now we're struggling to fill a lineup. Even though we had success, no one cared enough to come out.

You and I both know the real reason for the downward trend at South Adams. Don't play dumb. Less than 10 years ago I heard coaches bragging about having 100 kids in their elementary program and such.

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Here's a question to all one-class fanatics.     How about the individual awards in football and basketball and baseball.   Why should they have have a 1A all-state and a 5A- All state quarterback.     Or why do we have 5 Class All-State basketball teams?    Yes they helped their teams, but their efforts are being judged individually.  The 1A Shortstop can work as hard as the 4A Shortstop and be as good or even better.  Dont we want to know who the best Center in the state is?      Doesnt that devalue the whole All-State awards? 

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I know I'm late to the party here, but I don't like the idea of classing individual state, at all. Team state, love it. Individual, no. I'm sure it's been covered at some point in here (I'm not going through the entire thread), but, what happens when an elite kid from a small school is arguably, or even unquestionably, the best kid in the state? Why should he have to settle for a "small school" state title when he is the best? Yes, I agree getting more kids to qualify for state could be good for a program, and possibly for the entire state(from a numbers perspective), but why dilute what it means to be a "state qualifier" or "state placer" or "state champion." Our state tournament series is fantastic as is. Why change or take away from it?

 

Most top-notch kids get to that level because of the off-season training they do with clubs and such, so the size of school doesn't make much difference. Kids will get out what they put in, regardless of the school they are attending. I know it already goes on to certain degree, but a move like this would even further encourage high level kids to leave their small town schools and attend bigger "top class" schools in pursuit of the best competition and more distinguished honors. Classing individual state would increase numbers, somewhat, but it definitely wouldn't increase the quality of wrestling throughout our state. I understand my perspective, that of a fan and only a fan, will certainly differ from that of a coach, parent, or, most importantly, a wrestler. I also understand that my opinion holds no bearing, whatsoever, and that I probably sound like a broken record, but I'd hate to see our state go in this direction.

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There is 1 Mr. Basketball. 1 Indiana All-star team. 1 Mr. Baseball. 1 Mr. Football.

And those are team sports. I have no problem with classed team sports. I still feel individual sports do not need classes. I'm pretty sure everyone has stubborn beliefs on whether it's good or bad for the state. I don't see either side changing their points of view on this.

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There is 1 Mr. Basketball. 1 Indiana All-star team. 1 Mr. Baseball. 1 Mr. Football.

And those are team sports. I have no problem with classed team sports. I still feel individual sports do not need classes. I'm pretty sure everyone has stubborn beliefs on whether it's good or bad for the state. I don't see either side changing their points of view on this.

We have actually converted many people over the years
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