Silvertone1696 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Place me on the side of not classing the tournament. I have always loved watching a kid from a small school win against a kid from a bigger school/great program. The kid from the 2003 championship from Turkey Run gave me straight goosebumps. I guess one amendment I would be in favor of is the addition of 8 more wrestlers heading to state. Two more per SS obviously and four ticket round losers would have to win another match to get the state berth. The top two wrestlers from each SS are given a bye. In each six man section of the bracket the draws would look like this: 6 Vs 3 winner faces 2 seed 5 Vs 4 winner faces 1 seed Or like the NFL playoffs Lowest remaining seed from 3-6 wrestlers faces 2 seed Highest remaining seed from 3-6 wrestlers faces 1 seed However I'm not going to get on this forum and act like my opinion means much of anything. I'm not a coach, simply a fan and former wrestler from Kankakee Valley. And as a fan I just hope the sport can continue to have an exciting product like the SS and state tournaments. Y2CJ41 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 Well, given that neither of us has the data necessary to determine the experimental probability of either of these situations, it is not possible to know the truth value of the statement. However, knowing your opinion on this issue does help to complete my understanding of your opinion on class wrestling overall. Looking at the same facts and coming to completely different conclusions. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madtownxwrestler Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Place me on the side of not classing the tournament. I have always loved watching a kid from a small school win against a kid from a bigger school/great program. The kid from the 2003 championship from Turkey Run gave me straight goosebumps. I guess one amendment I would be in favor of is the addition of 8 more wrestlers heading to state. Two more per SS obviously and four ticket round losers would have to win another match to get the state berth. The top two wrestlers from each SS are given a bye. In each six man section of the bracket the draws would look like this: 6 Vs 3 winner faces 2 seed 5 Vs 4 winner faces 1 seed Or like the NFL playoffs Lowest remaining seed from 3-6 wrestlers faces 2 seed Highest remaining seed from 3-6 wrestlers faces 1 seed However I'm not going to get on this forum and act like my opinion means much of anything. I'm not a coach, simply a fan and former wrestler from Kankakee Valley. And as a fan I just hope the sport can continue to have an exciting product like the SS and state tournaments. I'm not against any of this but time at state becomes an issue. It's already a late Friday and very late Saturday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 Madtown, I agree with you there. This is one of the biggest problems w going to a class system. I think you'd have to keep it all together and at one site. That might be one of biggest hurdles to clear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fourboyzdad44 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The fact that the champion is the champion in our state means on that day at that tournament he was the best in the state. The argument for classes is akin to handouts in my opinion. There is everything right about a kid from any school being "the one", or "one of the few", that qualified for semi-state, or state. I personally was never a "State Champion", but that doesn't mean that I was a loser. Sport is all about striving to be the best, to better yourself, and to appreciate the opportunity to compete against the best. The fact that you lose in sports, allows kids to understand that you don't come out on top every time. My $.02 is no more important than anyone elses, but to class such an individual sport in my opinion cheats those kids that want to use the largest measuring stick available (an all in tourney like we have), and waters it down. I would rather have qualified for semi- state and been beaten by the best, than to have stood on a podium for all of the rest! Thor, BeastMode#31 and fanatic46041 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fine Print Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I'm sorry, I have not read through the entire thread, so I may be repeating something here. Coming from a small school, I would still fall on the side of a single individual tournament and one champion at each weight class. While I agree that a kid from a small school will have more hurdles to overcome to make it to the podium, it is still an individual sport and the number of kids in your school ultimately does not limit an individual's ability to become a state champion. On the other hand, I would love to see team champions determined by class. It may require reassigning sectionals, but why not award a 1A and a 2A sectional champion at each site? Same for regional, semi-state and state. School size definitely does have a bearing on team results, so in my mind that makes sense. And it's pretty simple to do. Just make sure that each sectional site has at least 4 1A schools in it and you're set for the remainder of the tournament. Two team champions at each venue each week. It's simple and it gives the small school teams a genuine shot at a title. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Fan Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I'm sorry, I have not read through the entire thread, so I may be repeating something here. Coming from a small school, I would still fall on the side of a single individual tournament and one champion at each weight class. While I agree that a kid from a small school will have more hurdles to overcome to make it to the podium, it is still an individual sport and the number of kids in your school ultimately does not limit an individual's ability to become a state champion. On the other hand, I would love to see team champions determined by class. It may require reassigning sectionals, but why not award a 1A and a 2A sectional champion at each site? Same for regional, semi-state and state. School size definitely does have a bearing on team results, so in my mind that makes sense. And it's pretty simple to do. Just make sure that each sectional site has at least 4 1A schools in it and you're set for the remainder of the tournament. Two team champions at each venue each week. It's simple and it gives the small school teams a genuine shot at a title. Would you not agree that a small school size will also limit the amount of practice partners a kid has, the quality of those practice partners or the off season training options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Here are some stats 1A- 15 teams with 16 qualifiers aka 7% 2A- 40 teams with 67 qualifiers aka 30% 3A- 61 teams with 141 qualifiers aka 63% So in essence 3A has about 1.4 qualifiers per school(all schools in 3A). About 60% of the 3A schools have a representative at state, while only about 15% for 1A. The fact that the champion is the champion in our state means on that day at that tournament he was the best in the state. The argument for classes is akin to handouts in my opinion. There is everything right about a kid from any school being "the one", or "one of the few", that qualified for semi-state, or state. I personally was never a "State Champion", but that doesn't mean that I was a loser. Sport is all about striving to be the best, to better yourself, and to appreciate the opportunity to compete against the best. The fact that you lose in sports, allows kids to understand that you don't come out on top every time. My $.02 is no more important than anyone elses, but to class such an individual sport in my opinion cheats those kids that want to use the largest measuring stick available (an all in tourney like we have), and waters it down. I would rather have qualified for semi- state and been beaten by the best, than to have stood on a podium for all of the rest! And yet 40+ states give these handouts. Why are all these states successful even with such a flawed system? How do they overcome such adversity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Here are some stats 1A- 15 teams with 16 qualifiers aka 7% 2A- 40 teams with 67 qualifiers aka 30% 3A- 61 teams with 141 qualifiers aka 63% So in essence 3A has about 1.4 qualifiers per school(all schools in 3A). About 60% of the 3A schools have a representative at state, while only about 15% for 1A. And yet 40+ states give these handouts. Why are all these states successful even with such a flawed system? How do they overcome such adversity? Here are some stats 1A- 15 teams with 16 qualifiers aka 7% 2A- 40 teams with 67 qualifiers aka 30% 3A- 61 teams with 141 qualifiers aka 63% So in essence 3A has about 1.4 qualifiers per school(all schools in 3A). About 60% of the 3A schools have a representative at state, while only about 15% for 1A. And yet 40+ states give these handouts. Why are all these states successful even with such a flawed system? How do they overcome such adversity? 1A parents will just have to make more babies and put headgears on them. It will take about 15 years to see an impact though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjayroza Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I understand that there are states that have a individual class system and that really does bolster your argument. I am not debating who is right, because it looks like the new wave of thinking will be a classed system. However, I do enjoy the individual non-classed system as it stands currently. It may be a little part of the "hoosier" sentiment when a small town kid can win a state title. (Yes, I know they can still win a "state" tourney with a classed system - just not the same imo) I know the "Tournamen of Champions" failed miserably in basketball, but is this something that could work with individual classed wrestling? I am totally for a classed system when it comes to a team's championship. Good discussion guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I understand that there are states that have a individual class system and that really does bolster your argument. I am not debating who is right, because it looks like the new wave of thinking will be a classed system. However, I do enjoy the individual non-classed system as it stands currently. It may be a little part of the "hoosier" sentiment when a small town kid can win a state title. (Yes, I know they can still win a "state" tourney with a classed system - just not the same imo) I know the "Tournamen of Champions" failed miserably in basketball, but is this something that could work with individual classed wrestling? I am totally for a classed system when it comes to a team's championship. Good discussion guys! The Tournament of "Champions" can be ISWA state or the Al Smith where you could see Prairie Heights or Garret or Rochester with state placers competing against Warren Central, Penn, Mishawaka, etc. In the other states they are pretty certain who the best is with their in season and out of season events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Small school state qualifiers, on average, work harder than their big school counterparts. It must be true or they wouldn't be able to overcome the hurdles and disadvantages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fine Print Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Would you not agree that a small school size will also limit the amount of practice partners a kid has, the quality of those practice partners or the off season training options. Yes, I completely agree. That's why I said they have more hurdles to overcome. It's still an individual accomplishment though, and there are ways to overcome those obstacles if the desire is there. Note, however, that I don't feel the same way about team sports. I'm all for classed basketball, football, volleyball, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Yes, I completely agree. That's why I said they have more hurdles to overcome. It's still an individual accomplishment though, and there are ways to overcome those obstacles if the desire is there. Note, however, that I don't feel the same way about team sports. I'm all for classed basketball, football, volleyball, etc. There are ways for small school teams to overcome those obstacles. Milan did it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fine Print Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Here are some stats 1A- 15 teams with 16 qualifiers aka 7% 2A- 40 teams with 67 qualifiers aka 30% 3A- 61 teams with 141 qualifiers aka 63% From the DOE website, it appears that the high school enrollments (grades 9-12) of all students in Indiana is around 302,000 kids. That means that - on average - a school would need to have about 1.350 kids in grades 9-12 in order to have a state qualifying wrestler. So - all things being equal - Penn should have about 2.5 kids qualify each year, and it should take a school like Triton about 4.5 years to get a qualifier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 There are ways for small school teams to overcome those obstacles. Milan did it. Of course, the Hoosiers classic. That was a long time ago and everybody loves the small school underdog in Indiana. If Milan can win, then any small could win. I think Milan has been a curse to small schools, and just took Indiana longer to class their sports as a result. But lets be real, everybody loves to bring up the outliers, the small schools that overcame the obstacles. For example, your Culver Community probabably is one of the better examples of small school kids doing well. Wasnt Hurford the last 1A school to win state. But when taken as a whole, the small schools dont fair that well. I think the depth of the small schools is also lacking, and I think thats the lack of success these schools have. I bet if you took the small school class schools in Ohio and put them up against Indiana, Ohio would dominate. I think you get less participation and effort because the bar is set so high to achieve something for the small schools. bog190 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tspray1 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 This topic lol!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Of course, the Hoosiers classic. That was a long time ago and everybody loves the small school underdog in Indiana. If Milan can win, then any small could win. I think Milan has been a curse to small schools, and just took Indiana longer to class their sports as a result. But lets be real, everybody loves to bring up the outliers, the small schools that overcame the obstacles. For example, your Culver Community probabably is one of the better examples of small school kids doing well. Wasnt Hurford the last 1A school to win state. But when taken as a whole, the small schools dont fair that well. I think the depth of the small schools is also lacking, and I think thats the lack of success these schools have. I bet if you took the small school class schools in Ohio and put them up against Indiana, Ohio would dominate. I think you get less participation and effort because the bar is set so high to achieve something for the small schools. Our current system is being supported by outlier examples of kids that had to work harder than their peers to achieve the same goal. Yet those same people don't want their teams to overcome those obstacles and want the watered down, best of the worst prize. Isn't that hypocritical?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The argument in favor of class wrestling is that it will help the sport in Indiana by increasing small school participation. Is there any argument that single class is beneficial besides that it makes the state finals cooler to watch? How does having one champion improve the sport in our state (compared to multiple)? bwoodjc89 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I asked my roommate how he feels about classes wrestling. He was an Ohio state qualifier for Fairfield in 1A. He said that the scrubs should be kept away from the big boys. I also asked him how happy he'd be if he won state at a small school. He said he'd be excited to be "King of the Scrubs". He may be a little extreme but that's how classed can be viewed, giving "scrubs" a class. And this is not my opinion, just another viewpoint from someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestling Scholar Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Our current system is being supported by outlier examples of kids that had to work harder than their peers to achieve the same goal. Yet those same people don't want their teams to overcome those obstacles and want the watered down, best of the worst prize. Isn't that hypocritical?? So what do you mean are system is being supported by outlier examples. These outliers are far and way between. In my humble opinion, the current system is supported by a monopoly of the big schools. Thats whats really whats relevant. How many outliers where there last year Karl. How many 1A kids placed last year. So you every 3-4 years, we get a 1A kid to the finals and everybody chants Rudy and Milan (Ironically the two famous underdog movies take place in Indiana). Look at this way, we had more 1A schools drop wrestling last year than 1A kids that placed. Also I have no idea of what you mean best of the worst? We'll have those 1A kids place and everyobdy will feel good and say thats whats good about Indiana. I guess you're an idealist and im a realist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I asked my roommate how he feels about classes wrestling. He was an Ohio state qualifier for Fairfield in 1A. He said that the scrubs should be kept away from the big boys. I also asked him how happy he'd be if he won state at a small school. He said he'd be excited to be "King of the Scrubs". He may be a little extreme but that's how classed can be viewed, giving "scrubs" a class. And this is not my opinion, just another viewpoint from someone else. Yeah scrubs like Logan Stieber, Harry Lester, J Jaggers, Nathan Tommosello all products of the watered down King of the Scrubs tournament Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Yeah scrubs like Logan Stieber, Harry Lester, J Jaggers, Nathan Tommosello all products of the watered down King of the Scrubs tournament Were they all from the small school division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Were they all from the small school division? My post wouldn't make much sense if they weren't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 My post wouldn't make much sense if they weren't Now are they from schools that barely fielded a team or were they from a schools like Mater Dei? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts