How would class wrestling work in Indiana?

[KarlHungus]

You're right. You'd have to throw Washington, St. Rita, and Marmion in there as well. The number of nationally ranked kids coming from this handful of schools is staggering, making a class system necessary.

When Catholic schools start dominating we will need a class system????

[KarlHungus]

I would encourage everyone wondering about class wrestling to head up to The Palace to in a few weeks to see Michigan's state finals. For a state to have several of the best wrestlers in the country every year, you would rarely know who they are because of the mess that comes with class wrestling. 12 mats, mass confusion, ridiculously hard to follow. It's all about that certain few kids that you are there to watch. I like to watch it all, I'm a fan of great wrestling. I have 3 wrestling fans from Michigan that come with me to see Indiana's state finals because, as they say "It's where it's at". We have allowed the ihsaa to ruin what the entire country knew was the best basketball tournament, let's not encourage the same with what has now become by far the BEST tournament our state has to offer. It would be a far reach to assume the ihsaa would only have 2 classes. It would be 3 or 4. The Finals are also held at the same time in class wrestling, I'm not a fan of wondering who just won a state title on May 3 when I wax keyed in on Mat 1. Get on YouTube and check it out. If u want class wrestling because your child goes to a smaller school and you think they would have a better chance that's understandable, however there are a lot of us out there that will be engaged in the sport long after said child is gone. Let's not fix it if it's not broken. I can just see the posts on here from parents of state champions ranting because there kid has never received a scholarship offer, because in reality a college scout or coach will see the real potential and talent level and it may not be good enough, even though you are a state champ. Kudos to the IHSAA for getting it right!

The fan's perspective is probably not the perspective that should carry the most weight when deciding what is best for high school kids and high school programs.

[KarlHungus]

Neccdad-

 

 

Great post. I think you are spot on. There was a dad on here last year that did/said exactly what you mentioned.

 

He was upset because his son went to some grand wrestling camp and when he was registering at the beginning of the week the coach of a D1 program asked this guys son:

 

D1 coach: " where are you from?"

Kid: "Indiana"

 

Coach: " did you make it to state meet?"

Kid: "no, I made it to semi-state"

 

The dad goes on to say that the coach did not show any interest in his kid the whole week of camp. BUT, if Indiana would have had a watered down class system his kid would have gotten some attention from said D1 coach.

 

So I ask, "Is your kid a D1 caliber kid? Because most D1 caliber kids in Indiana are 3-4x state qualifiers"

 

Dad says, "no"

 

Then what are you complaining about?

That your little Jimmy/Johnny can't say he is a state qualifier????

 

Most wrestlers are not state champs! It doesn't mean that wrestling is not an excellent sport. It teaches many great life lessons to those who are brave enough to step on a mat (whether you are a sectional qualifier or state champ).

 

Afraid soccer moms/dads have infiltrated our great sport.

It might have saved some time to just call anyone who advocates class wrestling a wuss who wants their kid coddled.  That way we can separate the cowards from the tough guys and protect the integrity of OUR (tough guys) sport.

[B. Alan]

When Catholic schools start dominating we will need a class system????

That's not what I said. I said a class system is necessary in a state like Illinois because there's a handful of ridiculously good programs (almost all near Chicago, btw) that would consistently sweep, or come very close to sweeping, a single class tournament. I wish I had some data that showed the number of large schools near Chicago compared to the rest of the state.

 

In Indiana we don't have that problem. Indiana is nothing like Illinois as far as population and population density variances are concerned. All parts of the state are well represented. Yes, we have our better programs, and there is no doubt more state qualifiers come from 3A schools, but our 2A(four state champs last year) and even 1A schools still have plenty of kids making deep runs and placing. We don't need a class system and never will.

[Y2CJ41]

That's not what I said. I said a class system is necessary in a state like Illinois because there's a handful of ridiculously good programs (almost all near Chicago, btw) that would consistently sweep, or come very close to sweeping, a single class tournament. I wish I had some data that showed the number of large schools near Chicago compared to the rest of the state.

 

In Indiana we don't have that problem. Indiana is nothing like Illinois as far as population and population density variances are concerned. All parts of the state are well represented. Yes, we have our better programs, and there is no doubt more state qualifiers come from 3A schools, but our 2A(four state champs last year) and even 1A schools still have plenty of kids making deep runs and placing. We don't need a class system and never will.

So that is why we have classed our other sports?

 

Our state tournament is dominated by the bigger schools, and by your assessment we should have went to class wrestling when Mater Dei won 10 straight titles since they are a catholic school that dominated.

[KarlHungus]

That's not what I said. I said a class system is necessary in a state like Illinois because there's a handful of ridiculously good programs (almost all near Chicago, btw) that would consistently sweep, or come very close to sweeping, a single class tournament. I wish I had some data that showed the number of large schools near Chicago compared to the rest of the state.

 

In Indiana we don't have that problem. Indiana is nothing like Illinois as far as population and population density variances are concerned. All parts of the state are well represented. Yes, we have our better programs, and there is no doubt more state qualifiers come from 3A schools, but our 2A(four state champs last year) and even 1A schools still have plenty of kids making deep runs and placing. We don't need a class system and never will.

It seems you are saying that if a certain sub groups of schools dominates, than a class system is needed.

[Galagore]

I wonder how long the, "Go back to one class" thread is in Michigan.

[Irishman1114]

So that is why we have classed our other sports?

 

Our state tournament is dominated by the bigger schools, and by your assessment we should have went to class wrestling when Mater Dei won 10 straight titles since they are a catholic school that dominated.

Y2,

You seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth with this comment. You say bigger schools dominate, yet, then you speak of Mater Dei's dominance. In 2003, when MD had the best team in IHSAA history (according to many people on this very site) they had 593 students enrolled. In my book that makes them a very small school compared to the likes of Carmel and Ben Davis, who have been far less "successful" than MD.

[Y2CJ41]

Y2,

You seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth with this comment. You say bigger schools dominate, yet, then you speak of Mater Dei's dominance. In 2003, when MD had the best team in IHSAA history (according to many people on this very site) they had 593 students enrolled. In my book that makes them a very small school compared to the likes of Carmel and Ben Davis, who have been far less "successful" than MD.

Mater Dei is an exception, if you can't figure that out. No other school big or small has their kind of tradition.

[Irishman1114]

Mater Dei is an exception, if you can't figure that out. No other school big or small has their kind of tradition.

If you add the enrollment of the three most successful schools in IHSAA history (Bloom South, Hammond, MD), they do not equal the enrollment of Carmel. How many exceptions do you need to prove the size of school has NOTHING to do with the talent on the mat.

[Y2CJ41]

If you add the enrollment of the three most successful schools in IHSAA history (Bloom South, Hammond, MD), they do not equal the enrollment of Carmel. How many exceptions do you need to prove the size of school has NOTHING to do with the talent on the mat.

Hammond? When did they last win a sectional title? Bloomington South is a big school.

[Irishman1114]

Hammond? When did they last win a sectional title? Bloomington South is a big school.

I don't follow Hammond wresting, but I'd say a school with 27 state champions is pretty successful. Bloomington South is a small school compared to the likes of Carmel, Ben Davis, Warren Central, etc. I was using them as an example to prove that if the enrollment of a school mattered the Carmel's, BD's, and WC's would be much more successful as you are insinuating that they are.

[fearless fly]

The same way having 2000 kids to choose from is better than having 500 to choose from.

exactly, and that is why they should have 4 times more champs...a simple law of averages. by giving the small schools the same amount of champs as the large schools would be unfair to the large schools imo

[Y2CJ41]

exactly, and that is why they should have 4 times more champs...a simple law of averages. by giving the small schools the same amount of champs as the large schools would be unfair to the large schools imo

And most do....

I don't follow Hammond wresting, but I'd say a school with 27 state champions is pretty successful. Bloomington South is a small school compared to the likes of Carmel, Ben Davis, Warren Central, etc. I was using them as an example to prove that if the enrollment of a school mattered the Carmel's, BD's, and WC's would be much more successful as you are insinuating that they are.

has Hammond had a state champ in the last 30 years?

[Irishman1114]

Does it matter if Hammond hasn't won a state champion in 150 years. I would be pretty proud to stand in that wrestling gym as a young man and stare at the pictures on the wall (or whatever form of rememberence they may have).

[takedownartist]

The thought of class wrestling just made me throw up in my mouth.

[B. Alan]

So that is why we have classed our other sports?

 

Our state tournament is dominated by the bigger schools, and by your assessment we should have went to class wrestling when Mater Dei won 10 straight titles since they are a catholic school that dominated.

If there were five other schools just like them, and there were three public school powerhouses, and they were all located in the same corner of the state. Then, yeah, that's what I'd be saying. 

[tigerte44]

I honestly think class wrestling would run wrestling into the ground just like basketball ...what happened to rooting for the Milan's?

[Katanakahn]

Has classed basketball or other classed sports helped grow those sports in schools?  We assume that if we class then more people will win thus wanting more people to play/wrestler.  I see the same few names every year in volleyball, football and other sports state finals.  The IHSAA put in a system to force successful schools up a class because the same schools were dominating year in and year out.

 

This is not a good comparison.  The Success factor is in place for a number of reasons.  Most of those affected by the success factor?  Private schools.  We can debate all day why the small private schools regularly out perform public schools in athletics, but that is a different discussion all together which I do not pretend to know the answer to.

 

I strongly believe that changing to a Class based Individual Tournament would increase participation, would expose more Indiana wrestlers to college programs and would allow more young men to be SQ's and State Champs.  No one loses in this scenario, some just gain.  How can that be a bad thing?

Afraid soccer moms/dads have infiltrated our great sport.

 

So, you don't want the sport to grow?  Or it can only grow if people who join share your opinions?

Edited February 14, 2015 by Katanakahn

[fearless fly]

This is not a good comparison.  The Success factor is in place for a number of reasons.  Most of those affected by the success factor?  Private schools.  We can debate all day why the small private schools regularly out perform public schools in athletics, but that is a different discussion all together which I do not pretend to know the answer to.

 

I strongly believe that changing to a Class based Individual Tournament would increase participation, would expose more Indiana wrestlers to college programs and would allow more young men to be SQ's and State Champs.  No one loses in this scenario, some just gain.  How can that be a bad thing?

 

So, you don't want the sport to grow?  Or it can only grow if people who join share your opinions?

they mite gain exposure in a class system but at what cost ?  weaker overall talent ? i think so

[Katanakahn]

they mite gain exposure in a class system but at what cost ?  weaker overall talent ? i think so

 

How is it weaker overall talent?  This isn't scarcity unless we make it that.  There isn't only so much talent to go around, we can grow MORE talent.  Success, breeds success.  Getting more athletes wrestling makes everyone better.  The cream will still rise to the top.  The best wrestlers will still get the best offers.

 

 More wrestlers get to taste success, and that takes nothing away from anyone.

 

Wrestling was sent a strong message by the IOC.  Failure to change with the demands of modern society will get wrestling left behind and is much more of a threat than any supposed weakening of the sanctity of the sport by instituting a class tournament like pretty much every other sport in the state.

 

Smaller schools have to fight for every athlete in every sport.  Many good athletes will choose the sport that gives them the best chance at making it deep into the tournament.  So if an athlete has to choose between class A basketball and single class wrestling and they have a decent basketball team and they are competent in each sport, something has to break the tie.  A better chance at making it to State would be a strong influence in such a scenario.

[RAJR]

Yeah, basketball is ruined. Wait, wasn't there just an article in the star about all the college and pro players from Indiana? How did that happen in that classed watered down sport?

[BlueBolt]

So let me see...I just watched Mater Dei and Danville stand toe to to with Avon and other "Large School" and earn their shots at the State Tourney....But I am supposed to believe we need to divide these poor down trodden programs into their own subsections to give them a fair shot...

 

ReallY?????????

[Tim Konrath]

I honestly think class wrestling would run wrestling into the ground just like basketball ...what happened to rooting for the Milan's?

I agree! The idea is disgusting!!! No wrestler who is truly competitive would want this! Competition breeds true success!!

[Madtownxwrestler]

It's simple enough. If I caught a bartender putting water in my Bourbon I'd punch him in the face.

 

It always seems like the argument comes down to "will it help smaller schools grow?" I highly doubt that. You already have classed basketball and football. Southwestern doesn't even have a football team. Classing that sport didn't seem to help them any.