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I'm just a casual observer who's never met Hinkle or Erslund or ever spent time in Purdue's room.  I never had beef with Hinkle and I have no particular preference for Erslund over whomever it is that you think should have gotten the job.  I'm simply telling you the full-season results.  Including the bad Michigan loss, Purdue has averaged 2.5 points per match in point differential better than it did last year in the 8 common duals they've wrestled.  They also own 3 wins against teams that were ranked at the time, compared to 0 last year. 

 

If you start to say that they "battled" better or that they "competed" more--or you start to create all the best-case scenarios for one side of duals without considering best-case scenarios for the other side--your cover is blown.  You have an agenda.  There is no way to measure things like "battled" or to assess "competed" with the naked eye outside of stark contrasts in conditioning.  Using those ideas as arguments just reflects the bias you have toward the preferences you possess. 

 

My only points with my first post were that 1) you're clearly selecting only results beneficial to your argument and shading them in ways that fit the point you're trying to make and 2) we have to look at full-season results without all the individual match caveats of "coulda woulda shoulda" if we want to get the general picture of how things are going...there's no other fair way to do it since individual matches can always be shaded however you want them to be.

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Using the word "Transformation" was probably a bad choice on my part. I know it is too early to claim any sort of transformation having taken place at Purdue. What I was curious about and the reason for my post was to better understand , if anyone knows, how and who in the university administration, in this case Purdue, decides when it is time to make a coaching change? Just curious how this all went down knowing that changing a coaching staff can be a risky endeavor with no guarantees.

No problem, thanks for starting the post. To your question:

 

From what I understand is that the assistant AD, who is responsible for the Olympic/Minor sports. pushed for the change for a

number of reasons; some believe their were personal philosophy clashes, some believe the assistant AD had thought Coach Hinkle lost control

of the program, which was bs conjecture. No mater what you thought, what we all saw on TV and in matches was a team wrestling hard

and improving.  

 

Despite the AAD's public claims to Purdue fan-base that Coach Hinkle was his guy, it turned out to

be pure hand-jobbing.  What this AD and assistant AD failed to realize is that the wrestling community is a tight night group that

watches everything and sees what goes on, and this can impact their desire to simply just apply for a job unprovoked.

Most familiar with the Purdue way, there is difficulty in getting things done directly (for example the Athletic Dept is

not state funded). At Purdue, you don't clash with the AD and assistant AD and ask for things. (For example, the AD has all power

to hire/fire assistants.)

 

Most understood the mountain that Coach Hinkle had to climb, and the steps he was taking to get there including wrestling development, facilities like a 

new wrestling room which Coach Hinkle carried most of the effort on, alumni development, marketing/branding, and other foundational issues to

compete in the long run. Patiently those issues were being improved. The timing was killer for recruiting, among other things. Purdue was building some recruiting momentum, and was 'in deep' with several high profile recruits for this year's class due to long developed Purdue connections (like the Valencias, Stroker, etc. ),

on top of the focus they were putting on getting Indiana's best, which Purdue made a priority.

 

So let's put aside that past, for a second and to summarize the new coaching search - the AD Staff preparation, timing, process, and direction was 100% FUBAR.

To make the right hire in Big Ten Wrestling, it takes due-diligence, a reality check, and a chess-like strategy.  The caveat is that these things need too

be prepared long in advance of making a change, not in April or May.  A good AD should have a list of the top 20-30 achievable head coach candidates, rising

assistants, program trends, etc. updated every year. It's not an NCAA infraction to write a hand written letter to a top assistant coach and say "congratulations, I like what you are doing, best of luck" just to keep blood lines flowing.

 

You need to perform an honest assessment of your goals & objectives, clear vision to meet those goals, affirmative direction,

'industry' expertise, a decision on what you are going to allocate for resources (head, assistants, volunteer coaches, grad assistants, and the

new term ' administrative assistants', (guys you are going to pay to stay around and wrestle), clubs, etc.  To not have any of this ready,

especially during the same year you just freaking just hosted your programs program's 100th celebration is derelict of duty, and just unbelievable.  

If they deem it is their decision to make the change, then be organized and prepared, which was definitely not the case.

 

So, instead of putting together an executive recruiting search plan, vision, and assembling an 'experienced team' around them

(AD & assistant AD), the Assistant AD probably assumes, 'Hey,I hired a track coach, how hard can a wrestling coach in the Big Ten be?' 

Putting a job description on Monsterjobs.com is not recruiting...so sad.

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I'm just a casual observer who's never met Hinkle or Erslund or ever spent time in Purdue's room.  I never had beef with Hinkle and I have no particular preference for Erslund over whomever it is that you think should have gotten the job.  I'm simply telling you the full-season results.  Including the bad Michigan loss, Purdue has averaged 2.5 points per match in point differential better than it did last year in the 8 common duals they've wrestled.  They also own 3 wins against teams that were ranked at the time, compared to 0 last year. 

 

If you start to say that they "battled" better or that they "competed" more--or you start to create all the best-case scenarios for one side of duals without considering best-case scenarios for the other side--your cover is blown.  You have an agenda.  There is no way to measure things like "battled" or to assess "competed" with the naked eye outside of stark contrasts in conditioning.  Using those ideas as arguments just reflects the bias you have toward the preferences you possess. 

 

My only points with my first post were that 1) you're clearly selecting only results beneficial to your argument and shading them in ways that fit the point you're trying to make and 2) we have to look at full-season results without all the individual match caveats of "coulda woulda shoulda" if we want to get the general picture of how things are going...there's no other fair way to do it since individual matches can always be shaded however you want them to be.

No agenda, but I will gladly take you up on the end of year.  But it is also obvious to see against the same 7 DIV. I opponents last year, that your data is not correct.

Against the common DI opponents, Purdue is actually averaging only a 6 point differential last year (Purdue16  to Opponent=22) as compared to almost a 10 point differential (Purdue 12 to Opponent 21.7) in 2015, which is a 4 point drop.  It does not include SIU, which is not a DI program.

 

And that's with 2014 Penn State coming off of their best team ever, Northern Iowa (#5) having their best Team ever. Schedule is always strong, but last year

wrestled the #1, #2, #3, and #5 dual teams including Iowa and Minnesota. This year they did add a strong Missouri team

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Some incorrect details in the summary of the match there.

 

133- the back-up that was in is a red-shirt senior, and the match was not won on false starts. That was at 141.

 

141- guy was a backup at the beginning of the year behind returning AA dutton, but after injury has stepped in their lineup and been ranked nationally this year. Match tied with less than 20 left and received his third caution. Lawrence rode out for the win. Even if no caution, overtime. Most exciting match of he day. Good win for Nick

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They have no control over the dates they are supposed to wrestle for Big 10 duals. I even talked to Coach Ersland this week and he said one of his top priorities is getting the IU dual moved.

Have you heard anymore about the possibility of getting this dual moved?

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Powerline, thanks for your reply in regards to my original question. Very enlightening! Your explanation and views on the process of selecting a college coach appear dead on.

 

In general, I suppose forums can serve as a clearing house for views, facts and opinions. They certainly help one evaluate things full circle. What is clear, is that Coach Hinkle, and his staff, should be commended and are appreciated for their hard work, vision and effort. I don't know Coach Hinkle personally, but it does not take too much to learn he is a man of integrity, compassion and ethics. Fine qualities in this day and age. On the other side of the coin, Coach Ersland, and his staff, are accomplished hard/smart workers hoping to instill their recipe of success for a group of fine young men and wrestlers. I suppose it fair that Coach Ersland, and his staff, be afforded the time to create the synergy and direction he is working towards.

 

Knowing the subject matters in these forums continue to be read by the wrestlers and parents of these college boys, it's probably worth reminding and reiterating that there is but one constant in this crazy world: change. Nothing ever stays the same, and while some may resist or be hesitant of change, change can (and most time does) bring many new opportunities. For the coaching staff going out and the staff coming in. For the wrestler looking to add to his/her repertoire. 

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To detail, your observation of the difference in coaching philosophies is astute. We need not degrade the previous coaching staffs effort here as you pointed out. I along with other wrestling enthusiast here in Indiana can sense that there is something at PU that is a little better than what we observed last year. So that being said, I think the blame or credit has to go to athletics director Morgan Burke(sp)

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No agenda, but I will gladly take you up on the end of year.  But it is also obvious to see against the same 7 DIV. I opponents last year, that your data is not correct.

Against the common DI opponents, Purdue is actually averaging only a 6 point differential last year (Purdue16  to Opponent=22) as compared to almost a 10 point differential (Purdue 12 to Opponent 21.7) in 2015, which is a 4 point drop.  It does not include SIU, which is not a DI program.

 

And that's with 2014 Penn State coming off of their best team ever, Northern Iowa (#5) having their best Team ever. Schedule is always strong, but last year

wrestled the #1, #2, #3, and #5 dual teams including Iowa and Minnesota. This year they did add a strong Missouri team

Not quite right.  I did include SIU-E in my numbers since they're a legitimate program that Purdue used the majority of its varsity against both times.  But you're right that D1 matches are what matter most.  You miscalculated somewhere in Purdue's scoring for last year.  They scored 88 in those 7 DI commons (12.6/match).  So in the 7 common DI matches (5 B1G and 2 non-conference), Purdue was 1-6 last year by an average score of 12.6-22 (-9.4), and is 2-5 this year with an average score of 11.7-21.9 (-10.2).  Last year, there were 3 top 5's and 3 others ranked at the time of the matches.  This year, there have been 2 top 5's and the other 5 all ranked as well at the time of the matches.  So basically identical if we include only those 7 repeat matches and ignore the 24-point improvement in the SIU-E match.

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I was a huge fan of Coach Hinkle and his staff.  I was sorry to see them leave Purdue.  I have watched Purdue over the last few years. I wish all the staff well.  I have seen several of the young men from the program around the state this year coaching in high school programs with great success. I hope that given some time, Coach Ersland can make the program flourish and continue to improve.  Coach Hinkle sure seemed to have the program and its athletes involved in developing wrestling in the area thru camps, clinics,RTC's and any other way they could lend a hand.  Hopefully Coach Ersland can do the same, given some time to get his athletes going and get his recruiting started.  I would be curious to know what you number crunchers can come up with on this thought.  It appears this year that the guys are far more aggressive.  Do the stats show an increase in takedowns or higher match scores this year?  Watching them this year they just seem to be really pressing the attack more and creating more opportunities. 

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I think coach Ersland is doing a great job.   But you cant say he's taken the program to a new level.    He's broken the top 25 with a #24 ranking.  Im going off memory, but Purdue was consistently in the top 25 under Coach HInkle.  Does anybody have the stats where Purdue ended up in the rankings the last 8-9 years.  You'll see Purdue was in the top 25 more than less.

Edited by Wrestling Scholar
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Any chance of setting up a 5th mat at bankers life and doing the dual in front of all of Indiana wrestling fans?

That would be pretty great!

 

On a different note, with one exception I though the Boilers looked much better and quite a bit more aggressive in their 22-13 victory over the Spartans Sunday.  I was really glad to see it.  I'm looking forward to the butt whipping they will hand the Hoosiers Friday night!

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I think coach Ersland is doing a great job.   But you cant say he's taken the program to a new level.    He's broken the top 25 with a #24 ranking.  Im going off memory, but Purdue was consistently in the top 25 under Coach HInkle.  Does anybody have the stats where Purdue ended up in the rankings the last 8-9 years.  You'll see Purdue was in the top 25 more than less.

A quick search found the NWCA/USA Today Coaches Poll.

2009-2010 Final Ranking #21 (11-10) -- Finish at Big Tens 6th

2010-2011 Final Ranking #23 (8-8-1) -- Finish at Big Tens 9th

2011-2012 FInal Ranking #25 (10-10) -- Finish at Big Tens 9th

2012-2013 Final Ranking #14 (17-6) -- Finish at Big Tens 9th

2013-2014 Final Ranking Unranked (6-8) -- Finish at Big Tens 11th

So the argument for a regime change is that over the past several years, Purdue is basically a .500 team and at the bottom of the Big Ten.  Is this acceptable? Shouldn't Purdue fans hope for more regular seasons like 2012-2013 (17-6 ranked #14) and finishes at the Big Tens like 2010 (6th)?  Maybe not every season, but maybe more often than it's happening now?

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Shouldn't Purdue fans hope for more regular seasons like 2012-2013 (17-6 ranked #14) and finishes at the Big Tens like 2010 (6th)?  Maybe not every season, but maybe more often than it's happening now?

 

 

I think the answer is YES.  But I feel as if Coach Ersland needs more than a few months to do it or to have people judge him as to whether he did or didn't!   I feel the real indicator as to whether he will make a transformation cannot be truly answered until the team is more "his" team.  Right now we are seeing his ability to coach, lead and improve kids that were/are a product of the previous coaching staff.  He has already attracted some great recruits for next year and he will for the following I'm sure.  For me, I'm excited to see what kind of team he builds in the next couple years, then we will be able to call it a transformation if the shoe fits. 

 

Just my $.02

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To Smooth34, thanks for the the Coaches Poll information.  A Big 10 college is, by my way of thinking, short sighted from a business perspective if they lack interest in doing what it takes to assemble winning teams across the board.  Athletic success can be good business.  It then goes back to what Powerline mentions about the time and due diligence it takes to assemble a staff that is capable of delivering.

 

To WCWC Coach: I think your points are well taken.

 

Just my $.02

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To me the Boilers wrestled much better than I saw in the last couple duals. They were a few close ones but most were understandable.  Unranked Chad Welch wrestled his butt off against #15 Jackson and ended up with a nice upset win.  I also feel that Gelen wrestled very against the more experienced Goldman and unfortunately lost that one in OT.  The other OT match was Atwood/Sheridan.  Not sure if that match necessarily should have went to OT, but Braden really turned it on at the end and ended up winning his last ever match at Holloway and on senior night as well.  The Robinson/Walsh match was the last match of the evening and going in to it the team score was 30-3.  Walsh went out there like a man on a mission.  He was doing EVERYTHING he could to ensure a pin, heck he even tried a head and arm hip toss!  It was clear that he would settle for nothing less.   One other match that sticks out was 133.  I realize Shephard has had a rough season, but Danny was on fire.  He looks to definitely ready for the REAL March Madness!!!  I can't wait!!

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http://www.purdueexponent.org/sports/mens/wrestling/article_8f2bf5b9-a037-5340-8785-38d5a4e9975c.html

 

Posted: Tuesday, February 24, 2015 10:00 am

By BROCK REISH Staff Reporter

As the Purdue wrestling team looks to the Big Ten tournament, two first-year assistant coaches may offer an interesting advantage. Just six years ago, the two Boilermaker coaches were wrestling in the Big Ten tournament themselves.

The 2014-15 season brought a great deal of change to the Purdue wrestling program, namely the hiring of new head coach Tony Ersland. He had spent the previous eight years as an assistant coach with Nebraska, where he helped coach the Cornhuskers to seven top-20 team finishes; he was no stranger to the competitive nature of Big Ten wrestling. While assembling his new coaching staff at Purdue, Ersland knew young coaches with Big Ten experience could help give the Boilers an edge.

As he looked to assemble his staff, Ersland first hired Tyrel Todd. Todd, a 2009 Big Ten champion and three-time All-American out of Michigan, always dreamed of competing in the Big Ten, but was not sure if coaching would ever be a part of his résumé.

“The Big Ten was something I sought after,” Todd said. “I had better scholarships to go to Missouri and Oregon State, but I really wanted to go to the Big Ten because it’s the best conference. I knew I would become the best wrestler I could be going to Michigan.

“I wasn’t sure if I’d go into coaching. I knew I wanted to compete after college; I was fourth in the Olympic trials in 2008, so I’d had some success on the international scene ... Due to some injuries and setbacks, I kind of gravitated toward coaching, and found it to be my passion.”

Less than two months after hiring Todd, Ersland added Zach Tanelli to the Boilermaker coaching staff. Like Todd, Tanelli was a young coach who had found success in the Big Ten. He qualified three times for the national tournament, and earned All-American honors in 2009 at Wisconsin. Tanelli spent five years coaching at Hofstra Univeristy before finding his place back in the Big Ten.

“I knew for a long time I wanted to coach, even during my competitive career,” Tanelli said. “I took a job out of school at a mid-major program. I worked hard there to try and produce and put myself in a position to get back in (the Big Ten); this is where you always want to be ... We are going to be able to recruit the guys that I feel am like-minded with myself and I can relate to the most.”

Being able to relate to the athletes is important to any coach, but Todd and Tanelli, being only six years removed from their personal collegiate careers, are able to take it to the next level. These two assistant coaches don’t guide from the edge of the mat; they train side-by-side with the team.

“He is there 100 percent of the time, which we respect so much,” said redshirt junior Danny Sabatello of Tanelli. “It makes us more excited to compete. When you’ve got a coach who you know cares, you know he’s in there doing the same work ... you can relate. You think (less) of doing it for yourself, but you do it for your team; you do it for your coaches.”

Todd is still looking to further his personal career as a competitor, and sees his time at Purdue as a way to become vested in the careers of current Boilermakers while still progressing himself.

“My goal is to make the Olympic team in 2016,” Todd said. “With that in mind, what better situation to be in than training with a bunch of college guys who are training to be national champs?”

The fact that Todd is remaining a competitive wrestler while coaching has made an impact on the Boilermakers.

“Everything he hits is high-caliber. He shows us, as wrestlers, what we can be if we work and train like he did,” said redshirt junior Chad Welch.

The experience of Todd and Tanelli in the highly competitive Big Ten wrestling scene is certain to have an effect on the athletes they are coaching. The hands-on style they use to coach pushes the team to its physical and mental limits, but the Boilers respond to it.

Welch said, “They won’t put us through anything they wouldn’t go through themselves.”

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

This thread has definitely battled back and forth the subject of "who's better, Hinkel's boilers or Ersland's Boilers".  I'm not sure if this weekend B1G Championships prove that one way or another, but putting all that aside I want to give a quick shout out to our Boilers!  5 on the podium, 5 wrestlers placing above their seeds and 8 to the NCAA's is leaps and bounds better than they have done in quite some time.  8 qualifiers ties an all-time high at Purdue!  Still tremendous room for improvement in the area of team placing and getting our athletes higher on the podium, but again a much better showing.  There were numerous highlights from the weekend for sure.

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This thread has definitely battled back and forth the subject of "who's better, Hinkel's boilers or Ersland's Boilers".  I'm not sure if this weekend B1G Championships prove that one way or another, but putting all that aside I want to give a quick shout out to our Boilers!  5 on the podium, 5 wrestlers placing above their seeds and 8 to the NCAA's is leaps and bounds better than they have done in quite some time.  8 qualifiers ties an all-time high at Purdue!  Still tremendous room for improvement in the area of team placing and getting our athletes higher on the podium, but again a much better showing.  There were numerous highlights from the weekend for sure.

 

Thanks for posting this; while it SEEMS like improvement, but before the AD runs out with bonuses for the coaches, let's analyze the data. I think

the 8 qualifiers are misleading, especially when you have guys finishing 10th place. I wish the results were due to better wrestling, but if you study the data objectively, you would see there is a little more reality behind the scenes that benefited the Boilers this year. Celebrate all they want, but this has some smoke & mirrors to it:

 

Key Observations:

 

1.  Allocations, Allocations, Allocations - with the increase of 12 big Ten allocations from last year the Boilers were the primary beneficiary      especially at 133, 174, and 184.  Not good when your top 10 ranked 133lb guy gets pinned for 10th place.

     Using last year's Allocations they would be lucky to get one more qualifier. (see items #2 & #3)

 

2.  Maryland & Rutgers - Just what the doctor Ordered!  In having these two teams, the Big Ten picked up their allocations, while these teams      had brutal inaugural tourney's. (Maryland lost NCAA finalist Sheptock from last years squad). Purdue made hay on these weaklings with     a 6-2 head to head record, with important match-up wins in some first round bouts, and some 9th place semifinal bouts. This alone gave you key     qualification wins in 3 or 4 weight classes.  Throw these team in the 2014 big Ten Mix and the impact would be huge.

 

3.  Getting Health Welch Twins Back - having these two 4th year guys back from injury benefited the new staff immensely in wins at the tourney      and qualifiers.  Also helped that your 141 lbr had some victories in the tourney over guys who were wrestling 133 pounds earlier in the year, those are match-ups you should win if you are lucky enough to get the draws.

 

4.  Indiana & MSU - Worst Teams in Recent History - In addition to Maryland and Rutgers, these two team were brutal. Purdue was 0-2 head to head      against IU losing twice at 174. these two team lost their NCAA points from last year was their AA Heavyweights. These teams were terrible.

 

5.  2015 Team Points - scored only 3 points with more matches wrestled in 2015, when they scored 34.5 team points, yet you have 4 more automatic qualifiers - go figure. The individual wins compared to last year boils down to match-ups with inferior Rutgers and Maryland grapplers, no other way to cut it.

 

 

Positives

 

#6 - First Round Wins - the difference in this year tourney is that you win the first match, and get a bye in the wrestleback,

      you can finish no worse than 10th place in most cases. But of course a few of those wins were against Rutgers/Maryland, see

      #2 above. Beating them in the first round also gives you team points when 9-10 matches do not.

 

#7 - Robinson's win at 165 over Moore of Iowa. - Huge win, both in getting another qualifier, but also in denying Iowa the Team Title outright.

 

 

 

                                        125 133 141 149 157 165 174 184 197 285 TOTAL

2014 NCAA Allocations      7      8    6    6     8     8    7    7     8    9     74

2015 NCAA Allocations      5     12   8    7     8     8   10 10    9    9    86                        

2014 Qualifiers   Q Q Q         Q   4

2015 Qualifiers   Q Q Q Q Q Q Q Q   8

2015 Qualifiers Under 2014 Allocations   Q* Q*   Q* Q*     Q*   5                        

2014 PLACE 8 3 8 11 10 10 11 11 6 10

2015 PLACE 12 10 6 7 6 8 10 9 7 14                          

2014 Byes 0 1             1   2

2015 Byes 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0                        

2014 Team Points 6.5 14.5 4.5           9   34.5

2015 Team Points 1 1 8 6 8 4.5 0 0 9 0 37.5                        

2014 First Round Win 1   1               2

2015 First Round Win 1 1 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 5                        

2014 Tourney Wins 2 3 2 0 1 1 0 0 2 0 11

2014 Tourney Losses 3 1 3 2 3 3 2 2 3 3 25

9th Place Wins         1 1       0 2

9th Place Losses         1 1       1 3                        

2015 Tourney Wins 1 2 3 2 2 2 1 2 2 0 17

2015 Tourney Losses 2 3 3 2 3 3 3 2 2 2 25

9th Place Wins 0 1         1 2     4

9th Place Losses   1         1 0     2

Wins vs. Rutgers/Maryland 1 2 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 6

Losses Vs Rugers/Maryland 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2

Edited by Powerline
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