ref medical authority

[harrisriley]

Curious, how a wrestler can have a signed form from a Doctor stating this small red bump on his upper arm is not ringworm states it is "erythematous and is not contagious" and the head Ref for New Haven Sectionals won't let him wrestle because "he thinks it's ringworm".  How can a ref overrule a Doctor?  Especially at Sectionals, the event they train all season for and he was ranked in top 4 for.  Being it was not ringworm the official ISWA form was not filled out (didn't need to be).  Ref commented "IF, it had been on that form he MIGHT have considered it but he still thinks it's ringworm".  This spot was examined on Wednesday, January 28, 72 hours prior to this event.  How can a ref with no medical training override a Doctor? Just looking for comments or advice

[edb41]

I'd have had the form stating it wasn't an issue, just good practice

[warsawwrestling]

I was notified today the ref’s can override the doctor’s note today. I was told that if they have a concern, even with a doctors note that they, the refs, can overrule the note. As a nurse myself I find this concerning. If this is the case, than why can I not make the call if it has been treated? I have a kid’s family that has spent almost $200 over the last 3 weeks to have notes, since they cannot be over 7 days old even for the same spot. It is hard enough for some of these families to supply gear for these kids to wrestle, than we tell them they need a new note for ringworm every week. Now we are told that, that might not be good enough.

[BeastMode#31]

Curious, how a wrestler can have a signed form from a Doctor stating this small red bump on his upper arm is not ringworm states it is "erythematous and is not contagious" and the head Ref for New Haven Sectionals won't let him wrestle because "he thinks it's ringworm".  How can a ref overrule a Doctor?  Especially at Sectionals, the event they train all season for and he was ranked in top 4 for.  Being it was not ringworm the official ISWA form was not filled out (didn't need to be).  Ref commented "IF, it had been on that form he MIGHT have considered it but he still thinks it's ringworm".  This spot was examined on Wednesday, January 28, 72 hours prior to this event.  How can a ref with no medical training override a Doctor? Just looking for comments or advice

That is a tough break. Sorry to hear that. Hope he isn't a Senior.

[terryopinionated]

A couple of things that I have learned from experience;

* The official has ultimate jurisdiction on all matters

* ALL notes regarding skins conditions HAVE to be on the IHSAA (not ISWA) approved form, and have to be dated within one week of the actual event in which they are wrestling. It's in the IHSAA by-laws.

* Just because the note says it was not contagious on January 28 does not mean it has not become contagious as of January 31 (today).

 

Had the home school provided an on site doctor, and said doctor approved the wrestler to participate, the official would rarely if ever disagree with that decision. That's why there will be a qualified doctor at most, if not all, Regionals, at all four SSs, and definitely at Banker's Life. Unfortunately, some school, wrestlers, and/or parents have provided false documentation in the past. I have no horse in the race, but I have been there done that on both sides

[SpartanGrappling]

Pretty straight forward... http://www.ihsaa.org/Portals/0/boys%20sports/wrestling/NFHS%20SKIN%20LESION%20FORM.pdf

[edb41]

If it was a big enough issue to take him to the doctor it was a big enough issue to have the form filled out

[BeastMode#31]

If it was a big enough issue to take him to the doctor it was a big enough issue to have the form filled out

Not necessarily true...and no need to add insult to injury.

 

It could have been a small lesion, as he suggested. He thought he had done his due diligence by going above and beyond to get a doctor's release.

 

Again, I hope the young man was not a senior and lives to fight another year.

[edb41]

No injury or insult, just covering your butt

[harrisriley]

First let me apologies for stating wrong form in original post, I did mean the IHSAA form.  Second, it wasn't a big issue, it was a bug bite about the size of an eraser on the end of pencil.  My son asked me to meet him at Redimed to rule/document it was not ringworm so he wouldn't have any issues over it at Sectionals. Thanks for all the feedback!!

[charger.dad]

I would think that at this point in the season, a (per the description) small spot of ringworm would be looked past, especially if there was a doctors note stating what it was and that it was not contagious (and not even ringworm). Cover it up, wrap it well and let them wrestle. I could understand if it were an open wound that was oozing and infected. Can you imagine how many wrestlers yesterday had ringworm that went undetected anyway? How often have you seen wrestlers with areas wrapped that were skin issues and they wrestled? There are many other skin conditions that I could see holding a wrestler out for but this case seems like the ref might have went overboard? Could have been much worse than the poster is saying but if not, it seems extreme. I have seen countless skin issues on kids over the years - some that I thought were beyond what I would think would be let go, but yet the kids wrestled. I'm all for skin disease control and all of that and hate it when my kids get something, but it happens and is probably part of every wrestlers history. 

[norm]

I would think that at this point in the season, a (per the description) small spot of ringworm would be looked past, especially if there was a doctors note stating what it was and that it was not contagious (and not even ringworm). Cover it up, wrap it well and let them wrestle. I could understand if it were an open wound that was oozing and infected. Can you imagine how many wrestlers yesterday had ringworm that went undetected anyway? How often have you seen wrestlers with areas wrapped that were skin issues and they wrestled? There are many other skin conditions that I could see holding a wrestler out for but this case seems like the ref might have went overboard? Could have been much worse than the poster is saying but if not, it seems extreme. I have seen countless skin issues on kids over the years - some that I thought were beyond what I would think would be let go, but yet the kids wrestled. I'm all for skin disease control and all of that and hate it when my kids get something, but it happens and is probably part of every wrestlers history. 

 

So the officials should put the other 100+ wrestlers and themselves at risk of infection to let one kid wrestle?  Covering up a skin condition is not an option and is not allowed.

[charger.dad]

so why bother getting a signed doctors note if it holds no weight? obviously this ref totally discounted the doctors diagnosis......

[Y2CJ41]

From what I read they didn't have the IHSAA form, which is REQUIRED.

[GrecoISU]

Forms have never in history been forged.

 

On a serious note, most officials and coaches have been around wrestling long enough they can tell if something is contagious or not. A trainer on site is also a nice resource to use.  Way too many times I've seen kids pick stuff up from tournaments that officials let go through or a note says their okay to wrestle.  I'm not arguing that officials know more than doctors.  What I'm saying is I can VERY easily talk a doctor or nurse practitioner into writing the words non-contagious so that I could wrestle. 

[Ds Dad]

I think the person was confused as to whether the form needed to be filled out. n the form there is a note to the doctor that says if the spot is  not infectious then it does not need to be treated. It does not, however, say that the form is not needed. When in doubt CYA is the real lesson here.

[edb41]

I'm sure the forms are forged, maybe the doc fudges a little etc, but if the rules say you need a form then have a form, the refs can't judge medical hypocrisy, but they can rule real easily if you have a form or not

[GrecoISU]

I'm sure the forms are forged, maybe the doc fudges a little etc, but if the rules say you need a form then have a form, the refs can't judge medical hypocrisy, but they can rule real easily if you have a form or not

 

If the form is say four days old and it looks red, raised, and not dry than I'm probably not letting the kid wrestle.  Fact of the matter is it could have looked a certain way at one point and now is in a different stage.  The goal is the safety of all wrestlers.  I think I'd like it very much if my kids don't have MRSA.

[J.G.]

I thought the official handled the situation very well. The doctors note wasn't on the IHSAA form and the official said they would allow the wrestler to go to RediMed and attempt to get a note on the IHSAA form and then come back. I don't think any official wants to keep an athlete from competing but it is their responsibility to make sure the other athletes aren't put at risk to contract a skin infection. 

[MattM]

I feel it would be nice at most major tournaments (both jarge in-season events and the IHSAA tournament series)  if a certified medical person available for at least an hour in-case of any concerns during weigh-ins.  In these major events that can have a decent impact of the wrestlers season, it seems fair that an effort should be made to acquire the services of a doctor, nurse practitioner, or whatever other medical professional is given the authority to examine and clear any questionable issues.

 

We had a situation a few years back where one of our senior wrestlers was not allowed to compete in a major in season tournament because the weigh-in official was worried about a raised redish/pink splotch on the wrestlers chest.  We had the official form filled out at the start of the years by his family doctor documenting our wrestler has eczema flair ups occasionally.  We also had a second official form documenting the doctor had seen the wrestler a day prior because the wrestler had a residual raised redish/pink splotch on his chest due to a recent eczema flair up that was still noticeable after most of the rest of the eczema at cleared up.  However, the official still questioned the area and would not allow our wrestler (who had a decently high seed) to compete without clearance from an on sight doctor since he suspected the spot may actually be ringworm.   We asked the tournament director if an on-site doctor was available, but he said no they did not have one for the event.  We pointed out one or two other small areas of eczema that could faintly be seen around his elbow joint and neck, but I guess that wasn't noticeable enough for the ref to take into consideration.   We asked if we could call his family doctor for confirmation and the tournament director and referee said that would not be good enough.  During our hustle to try and remedy the matter someone working at the event identified themselves as a nurse and offered to assist in the matter, but we were directed she was not qualified to make the final call on the decision. She then informed us that their was a immediate care medical clinic about two miles down the road that we could take the wrestler too in order to get the proper documentation.  When we asked the tournament director if we could go the the clinic in order to get the clearance prior to the event starting, he said no that since the medical professional was not of staff to talk to the ref about the matter that this would not be accepted and they were going to move forward with the event. 

 

Luckily this was/is not a regularly occurring issue and the wrestlers often get to compete with the proper documentation.  However, it did matter at the one event as the head ref and tournament director were set in the decision and it cost our wrestler a chance to compete in a major in-season tournament.  I do understand the caution the ref's must take to ensure other wrestlers are not exposed to potential season ending issue, and thus have to make tough decisions even if they are not medical experts. As such I am not completely blaming the ref for the issue, as his hands were somewhat tied by not having someone with better medical qualification to look to for a better opinion.   Yet, had the tournament director had the proper medical person available for just the hour weigh-in's I'm positive this would not have been an issue.  Or if he had had been slightly more open to alternative solutions to solving the situation since an hour still existed before the tournament was to start.

[The Guru]

[edb41]

The form guarantees nothing, but not having the form hurts your odds

[thebestthatneverwas]

I do the skin checks at the Al Smith and we have 400 plus wrestlers to inspect (and by the way it is good to see that Terryopinionated is back). But even though they have Doctors there, I have to tell them not to touch each individual wrestler as they are inspecting them, because now you have just touched one and then another without using gloves. When it did come to anything that was questionable they would say it is OK "IF THEY COVER IT" to which we tell them that IS NOT ACCEPTABLE, as the sweat or bodily fluids can seep through the gauze or what ever material they use to cover it. We have had wrestlers bring a form that was run off some site on the internet, and not an IHSAA form that is on the IHSAA web site. Bottom line is that this is the end of the season not the beginning of the season, so they should know by now. We had the entire state of Wisconsin SHUT DOWN the sport of wrestling for 3-4 weeks a couple of years ago because of a ring worm epidemic. And we don't want this to happen to our state do we? Especially because someone didn't error on the side of caution.

 It isn't about the one wrestler, it is about the other wrestlers and officials that are going to be rolling around on the same mat as this questionable wrestler, and the chance he has something that could be either brought home or given to anyone who comes in contact with what ever it is that he has or doesn't have. 

  Doctors don't understand the physical contact involved when two wrestlers are going at it for 6 minutes. The next time you see a match conclude and you see all of the sweat dipping on the mat, come on down and roll around in it then go up and give you wife a big hug and ask yourself if that sweat contained anything other than sweat?

 We have officials that don't shower afterwards, and we have most wrestlers that don't shower after a dual or multi dual event or even yesterdays sectional.

If you want to put a dent in this problem, we have rule changes every year but one that we don't see is making it mandatory that all contestants MUST SHOWER after the end of a dual multi dual or tournament event.

 You can clean mats every meet or after every round, but if a wrestler just made contact with his opponent who has ring worm or other skin conditions, that clean mat isn't so clean any more. Parents ask your sons if they truly shower after a meet? And I mean truly.

 We had a discussion when a few of the officials got together last night after our sectionals and this is the one that came up the most, and we even talked about before the weigh in yesterday at our sectional at Elkhart Memorial and how we were going to handle it if it did come up? We decided that if there was a question we would come together and make a decision as a group, but if there was any question we would error on the side of caution. But again, when we are doing this we don't touch the wrestlers; we inspect them as best we can and hope we don't miss anything. (And also hope they aren't hiding anything from us).

 Yes and you thought all we have to do is award take downs escape and reversals.

[charger.dad]

so as I read through this it sounds as if covering up a spot of ringworm is not allowable?.....i've seen it done a number of times is why i ask......put a bandaid or whatever over it and tape it up tight......i always thought that was an acceptable way of working around this.....

[cbarnett]

_{Covering a contagious skin condition is not allowed as an acceptable alternative, and allowing the use of a doctor's note that is not on the IHSAA approved form is also not acceptable}