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ref medical authority


harrisriley

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as a matter of fact yesterday at our sectional a wrestler had a full face mask on.....when he took it off he had (what looked to me like ringworm) a large red spot on his chin......so how is that acceptable if covering skin conditions is not?......i assume the ref deemed it non contagious, he more than likely had the proper form, and it looked dried up?.....tough decision i'm sure to tell a kid his season is over and one i'm sure the refs do everything possible to avoid.....


Covering a contagious skin condition is not allowed as an acceptable alternative :)

 

contagious......the key word in this whole discussion.....who is qualified to make that call?

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contagious......the key word in this whole discussion.....who is qualified to make that call?

 

In the earlier document I posted from the IHSAA website/NFHS by-laws it says a spot can be covered if it is no longer contagious. They determine whether it is contagious from the form the doctor completes which states when treatment began and the earliest day the athlete may return to competition. During our preseason referee meeting there was a lengthy discussion about using the proper form and making sure it is filled out correctly. If the athlete has the proper form but there is no date written for return to competition, technically, the refs are not allowed to accept that either.

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I think one reason the ref has ultimate authority on making a decision is the outside chance that the proper form has not actually been filled out by a Dr. Of course that is crazy to think that anyone would ever do that, but I guess you should always error on the side of caution. I agree with a previous post in having a certified medical person of some sort on site to make the final determination on any questionable skin issues.

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as a matter of fact yesterday at our sectional a wrestler had a full face mask on.....when he took it off he had (what looked to me like ringworm) a large red spot on his chin......so how is that acceptable if covering skin conditions is not?......i assume the ref deemed it non contagious, he more than likely had the proper form, and it looked dried up?.....tough decision i'm sure to tell a kid his season is over and one i'm sure the refs do everything possible to avoid.....

 

contagious......the key word in this whole discussion.....who is qualified to make that call?

I saw the same wrestler Saturday and I noticed that he only wore the mask for the first couple of rounds. When I saw his face later I remember being amazed that any ref let him on the mat.

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i guess that is the disturbing part of this whole discussion.....there is not any real consistency to this much like stalling calls, out of bounds and pins......every ref calls them a little different.....i wonder if this kid would have been not allowed to wrestle had he been at the same sectional as the one that started this post?

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Situation at Elkhart Memorial Sectional was completely different - Mask was worn to protect a fractured nose and was worn during all four of the wrestler's matches.  The mask had nothing to do with any skin issue.  Spot on face was ringworm that was diagnosed by our family physician the Monday before Sectional and had been treated three times daily for four days prior to the meet.  Family physician also completed and signed the IHSAA form.

 

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Situation at Elkhart Memorial Sectional was completely different - Mask was worn to protect a fractured nose and was worn during all four of the wrestler's matches.  The mask had nothing to do with any skin issue.  Spot on face was ringworm that was diagnosed by our family physician the Monday before Sectional and had been treated three times daily for four days prior to the meet.  Family physician also completed and signed the IHSAA form.

 

sounds like at the least you did the correct things as far as getting it treated and having the proper form filled out.....BUT.....that doesn't stop the ref from totally discounting the form you had filled out properly because he didn't have the same "diagnosis" that the doctor did.....sorry about the quotation marks karl.......lol......that to me is where the whole issue is with this......

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so are you saying that if you have the proper form, filled out properly with the doctors consent that it is no longer contagious, that the ref can't over rule?......earlier discussion seems to say otherwise...... 

You have a significantly higher chance a referee will accept the note if it is on the proper IHSAA form. If the lesion is seeping and not dried up or they find another spot that is not on the note they have full authority to not allow the wrestler to participate.

 

I am glad you are fine with allowing your son to wrestle with kids that have contagious skin conditions. 

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i guess that is the disturbing part of this whole discussion.....there is not any real consistency to this much like stalling calls, out of bounds and pins......every ref calls them a little different.....i wonder if this kid would have been not allowed to wrestle had he been at the same sectional as the one that started this post?

When I see Mr. Clark is one of the refs I feel pretty confident that the rules will be followed and interpreted correctly. Hard to question him on much.

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You have a significantly higher chance a referee will accept the note if it is on the proper IHSAA form. If the lesion is seeping and not dried up or they find another spot that is not on the note they have full authority to not allow the wrestler to participate.

 

I am glad you are fine with allowing your son to wrestle with kids that have contagious skin conditions. 

 

never said i was fine with it as a wide open anything goes statement.....i did however say that if a doctors note says it's ok and not contagious, wrap it up anyway as an additional precaution, and let them wrestle........and i always thought that was the acceptable thing to do......once again though you have managed to put words in someones mouth that they did not stay......

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never said i was fine with it as a wide open anything goes statement.....i did however say that if a doctors note says it's ok and not contagious, wrap it up anyway as an additional precaution, and let them wrestle........and i always thought that was the acceptable thing to do......once again though you have managed to put words in someones mouth that they did not stay......

 

I'm not sure what you're looking for here Mr Vaughn, as it seems like you question every response as if you are looking for a specific answer. It's pretty simple... have the right note, and the area does not look contagious, and it eliminates 100% of the issue. Regardless of what the note said and what form it is on, though, it is the ref's discretion if the area in question looks to be contagious. Unfortunately, "whether or not it looks contagious" is 100% the ref's opinion, and they should error on the side of safety I would think. I wouldn't care what the note said, but if it had juice coming out of it, I wouldn't let him wrestle. Is it a perfect system? No, but it's the best we have unless the home management provides a medical professional (not a trainer) on site to make the determination. Your son(s) wrestle in Elkhart...would you want them wrestling somebody with a questionable skin condition?  Wrapping it up is NOT an option.

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How about this scenario. Just think how many coaches have a " connection" with someone in the medical field,  whether it be a friend , relative or even a spouse who may be qualified to provide a signature on the IHSAA forms that can be printed out in advance. So now this coach has a wrestler who has had a skin condition flare up overnight and since this coach has some pre signed paperwork available,  they now only have to fill in the blanks. Hopefully this isn't happening but just another reason officials need to have final say when medical personel are not provided by the host school. 

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This discussion has been interesting to read, partly from my perspective as an English teacher. Many are saying to "error on the side of caution," and I would just like to say that they should "err on the side of caution."

 

Now with my teacher hat placed back on the hook, I will say that, as a coach, it is difficult to always resign yourself to the ref's opinion when you and your wrestler do all things right with a note. Granted that they must make the judgment as to the appearance at that moment and not three days prior; however, also being an official, I know there is no true and thorough instruction in diagnosing a skin condition in order to become licensed. While realizing that most officials have likely been around the sport enough years to know a lot of the skin diseases, it is still something that might make coaches more at ease with decisions knowing the official has been given some sort of training in the matter.

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I'm not sure what you're looking for here Mr Vaughn, as it seems like you question every response as if you are looking for a specific answer. It's pretty simple... have the right note, and the area does not look contagious, and it eliminates 100% of the issue. Regardless of what the note said and what form it is on, though, it is the ref's discretion if the area in question looks to be contagious. Unfortunately, "whether or not it looks contagious" is 100% the ref's opinion, and they should error on the side of safety I would think. I wouldn't care what the note said, but if it had juice coming out of it, I wouldn't let him wrestle. Is it a perfect system? No, but it's the best we have unless the home management provides a medical professional (not a trainer) on site to make the determination. Your son(s) wrestle in Elkhart...would you want them wrestling somebody with a questionable skin condition?  Wrapping it up is NOT an option.

 

i'm just discussing an issue that i did not fully understand and it appears that many people on here did not understand either......isn't that what this forum is for?......as i said, i thought it was ok to wrap a spot and move on......i know you need to have the proper forms and so on but i did not know that a ref could over rule a doctors note......now obvioulsy there are circumstances where i'm sure they can (and should) if there is a fresh open oozing wound....i just didn't realize they had the final say on what "originally sounded like in this post", a minor spot that had the proper documentation......this has been a very interesting discussion that has brought out many thoughts from many coaches and refs......i am in no way putting down the refs for doing their jobs and never once said anything in that manner......all i said was that they have a tough job that is subjective at times......i likened this subject to the stalling, out of bounds and pins that one ref might call one way and one would call the other because it is in fact the same......the opinion of the ref......i feel the refs we have been around all these years do a good job  of getting it right and are always looking out for the safety of our kids........i'm not questioning their authority or their abilities......just asking questions that are about this subject......so to answer your question no i would not want my son wrestling a someone with an open wound and i wouldn't let my son on the mat if he had that condition.....

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This discussion has been interesting to read, partly from my perspective as an English teacher. Many are saying to "error on the side of caution," and I would just like to say that they should "err on the side of caution."

 

Now with my teacher hat placed back on the hook, I will say that, as a coach, it is difficult to always resign yourself to the ref's opinion when you and your wrestler do all things right with a note. Granted that they must make the judgment as to the appearance at that moment and not three days prior; however, also being an official, I know there is no true and thorough instruction in diagnosing a skin condition in order to become licensed. While realizing that most officials have likely been around the sport enough years to know a lot of the skin diseases, it is still something that might make coaches more at ease with decisions knowing the official has been given some sort of training in the matter.

I find this to be the best logic.  Not the English correcting point (that drives me nuts), but the training on skin issues.  If you, the wrestling community, are going to allow officials to overrule a doctor’s note and make decisions that hold wrestlers from wrestling, than these officials or someone on site needs to be trained.  As a registered nurse myself, I know that I have been trained but still cannot make these calls.  Which on a side note is silly.  Most if not all doctors sign these notes and have their nurses fill them out, so it will be hard to find out if they are fake or not. The only way to find out would be to call the offices and find out, but most are closed on the weekend.  So, I go back to my first statement that officials, an onsite trainer, nurse or medical person that has a form of training on skin issues make the final say if needed.  Being "trained" is the key!

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Ha, I've been through this and from what a dermatologist told me the only way to identify a lesion is to biopsy it and there is no guarantee that it is non-contagious unless it's gone. Too many of these skin conditions present in a similar way. I've seen kids get mis-diagnosed by dermatologists, as well as general practitioners taking a casual 'let's treat it as X". Now if doctors are having trouble, should we trust anyone to make a decision?

 

This weekend I had one kid with lesions that were visible and were documented on the correct form with a release date for returning to participate. There was long discussion by the refs and they almost didn't take the form. As is says right on the form, the intent is to "remove the referee from making a medical decision".

 

Something else to think about:

3 mats, 100+ wrestlers, wrestling for 4-6 hours, public restrooms with wrestlers in their shoes in/out (ever look at the floor under a urinal?)

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There is a process for approving a skin condition as non-contagious which allows a wrestler to compete and that has already been discussed. This process is actually in place to take the decision process off of the "untrained" official. Unfortunately unethical behavior has forced officials to make decisions on skin conditions that I guarantee they don't want to make.

 

Is it the best system? No. Do wrestlers that are contagious slip thru the cracks and are allowed to wrestle? Yes. Do wrestlers that are non-contagious not allowed to wrestle? Yes.

 

Arguing whether an official is qualified to make a decision on a skin condition is a waste of time. There are 2 ways to help this situation:

 

1. Coaches, Parents and Wrestlers make skin issues a non-issue by having good hygiene, washing mats and being relentless to identify any problems. When a skin condition does pop up during the season get it treated correctly. Do not worry about wrestling the next match until the condition is truly gone. Wrestling in conference with an iffy skin condition that a doctor signed off on (on the correct IHSAA note) doesn't mean much if your season (or high school career) is ended at weigh-ins of Sectional because the skin condition wasn't truly non-contagious (or at least doesn't look non-contagious to the official).

 

2. Coaches and IHSWCA demand that the IHSAA requires host schools to employee a licensed physician for Sectional, Regional, Semi-State and State. Charge $1 more at admission to pay for them if that is what it takes. Having a licensed physician at every "Major" tournament is not a realistic goal but I think it is very reasonable to have all the Sectional sites (and Reg, SS, S) have a doctor for weigh in. Most weigh-ins take 30-45 mins. I imagine the cost wouldn't be very much to get a doctor just for weigh-ins.

 

Notice I didn't say anything about having the right note or training officials. These are not the problems. Getting skin conditions under control for the health and safety of high school athletes needs to be the priority not letting a kid wrestle at any event.

 

And before someone says the condition in question from the original post wasn't contagious, I am referring to the overall problem of skin conditions and unethical behavior surrounding skin conditions which leads to a kid who probably should be able to wrestle getting DQd at Sectional.

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Ha, I've been through this and from what a dermatologist told me the only way to identify a lesion is to biopsy it and there is no guarantee that it is non-contagious unless it's gone. Too many of these skin conditions present in a similar way. I've seen kids get mis-diagnosed by dermatologists, as well as general practitioners taking a casual 'let's treat it as X". Now if doctors are having trouble, should we trust anyone to make a decision?

 

This weekend I had one kid with lesions that were visible and were documented on the correct form with a release date for returning to participate. There was long discussion by the refs and they almost didn't take the form. As is says right on the form, the intent is to "remove the referee from making a medical decision".

 

Something else to think about:

3 mats, 100+ wrestlers, wrestling for 4-6 hours, public restrooms with wrestlers in their shoes in/out (ever look at the floor under a urinal?)

Good points......The other thing that goes with this is that I thought it was going to be a point of focus that mats were to be mopped between rounds this year.  When we had our meet we were even called to make sure that we did this between rounds or we would be reported.  I have not seen it done at any other tournament after ours.

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