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lewdwar

Trophy Chasing

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I remember when I first started to get involved with elementary duals 10 years ago, At that time the idea was

to bond and help kids in your program. The kids on your elementary team would be on your middle school team and then your high school team. Today it seems that schools are bumping out their own kids and bring in kids from other school districts. I can understand if you do not have a kid to fill in a spot so you call Johnny and ask him to fill in but to bump out the kid that is going to grow through your program. So are we really helping our kids or just chasing trophies.

Edited by lewdwar

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That's one reason why I've avoided many dual meets these past couple of years. The though of a 1st grader possibly going up against a 6th in some weight classes is a bit nerve racking to the point I can't justify it. Even if the 6th isn't talented, the physical maturity between the two is enough for me to say no. I have never brought anyone from an outside team onto my team and don't plan on it. I'll give up a forfeit and worry about my team instead of getting a trophy with kids I don't know. 

 

I think there should be more segregation between dual meet teams by age/grade; a 3rd grade and under, then a 4th-6th grade division as well. Could easily be split up in the dual meet format. Team would wrestle each other with a younger team filling weights then an older team filling weights. If there's no one filling, don't penalize the full 6 points, but maybe 2 to give a good team with great wrestlers a chance to win, even if they aren't a full team. 

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It would be nice to have a  a small team, large team classes. Even though our school system is large, our wrestling program never has big numbers. It's always tough for us to fulfill a team as well. We are usually 4-5 spots short of a full lineup. We typically have about 3-4 deep in the average weights(55-75) and none in the large groups.

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It's also frustrating trying to fill a team and not being able to go compete at state b/c of the guidelines set forth to eliminate trophy chasing.

Not to highjack this thread....... but I think some good can come from this chat.

 

I would like opinions (for team state). Would you A- Like to keep rules to eliminate trophy chasing. B- open it up (free for all). C- Lets hear and (politely) discuss other options.

 

Please note that the rules which have been put into place have been mauled over by the ISWA board who have hundreds of years of combined experience volunteering to make wrestling what it is now (In Indiana).  Any constructive ideas will be greatly appreciated. Please keep it positive as possible. Anyone with solid and positive ideas are highly encouraged to attend an ISWA board meeting where they will be welcome to express their thoughts.

 

Slaymon- We have offered to do an all-star division (the past) and had one team apply. The two division idea has been attempted. I like the idea..... just didn't workout in the past. We have taken the small school vs. large school factor into consideration, by allowing more "wildcards" for smaller schools. I do understand what you are saying about your club being smaller (even if your school is large). I will be happy to give you information to take to football fields, schools, parks, etc... which may help grow the club.

 

It would be awesome to have a set of rules which would fit all clubs perfectly and that would put all clubs on equal footing. We all know that this would never happen (no matter how much we tweak stuff). Some team will always give up a few forfeits. Some teams will grow and be able to full a team. Some of the larger teams now, will lose steam and be in the spot of the current small teams. One thing that will remain constant is that we at the ISWA will do our best to continue to provide opportunities for youth to wrestle. And...... even if your club is not able to form a team at this time..... we do offer individual tournaments on the day of team state.

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Side note - I completely blame the 2 school corp in my county for being to bull headed to consolidate. Bartholomew County has 80,000 residents and 1 school Corp. Jefferson County has about 25,000 and 2 school corp. I have no fault w ISWA.

 

I glazed over what you said Matt, but we've talked in past. I have no ill will towards ISWA.

 

Im offering alternate tourney to teams that dont choose to go that day in Madison. We have 7 commitments and a couple if teams have inquired about last spot. Its just about getting kids mat time!

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Side note - I completely blame the 2 school corp in my county for being to bull headed to consolidate. Bartholomew County has 80,000 residents and 1 school Corp. Jefferson County has about 25,000 and 2 school corp. I have no fault w ISWA.

 

I glazed over what you said Matt, but we've talked in past. I have no ill will towards ISWA.

 

Im offering alternate tourney to teams that dont choose to go that day in Madison. We have 7 commitments and a couple if teams have inquired about last spot. Its just about getting kids mat time!

That's Awesome Dustin. I would encourage all teams that need mat time and can not attend our tourney to attend Madison's. Thanks, for all you do Dustin.

 

With that said, we are taking one more team for team state. We are trying to get 20 total.

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I'd like to see an All-Star/Academy division for the elementary state dual tournament, separate from that of the school clubs.  At Indiana Pride, we would not be able to compete in the state duals under the current format because we would be considered an "all-star" team, but I would like to see an opportunity for our kids to still compete in a state dual tournament.  Essentially an RWA vs. MCWA vs. Contneders vs. Outlaws vs. CIA vs. Red Cobra vs. IPWA vs. whomever.  We are just starting our youth program and are well behinds some of these programs currently, but we have kids who's school does not offer a club and therefor they wrestle and train with us.  In an effort to give them the same opportunities as other kids their ages I think this would be beneficial. 

 

Regarding more parity for the big vs. small schools conversation, that is over my head as I know enough to know I don't anything at all.  We are just now getting into this arena but I do think it's awesome that so many youth programs, coaches and kids are participating in wrestling at this age either way.  As one of Team Indiana's Cadet and Junior coaches, these kids will soon be representing Indiana on the national stage and I will be working with many of them in some capacity. With that said, I commend all of the ambassadors of our sport working to maximize our state's potential.  Coach Brewer and everyone, thanks again and keep up the good work!

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Greenwood WC just wrestled off for Johnson County duals last night and we have 5 really good 55 pounders. I would like to see the weights change and make them smaller increments and not allow any alternates. No Alternates rule should apply for ISWA State duals and it should be up to the hosting school to determine if they will allow teams to have alternates and allow academy’s to wrestle in their event and this should be communicated in their event flyer and to the teams who plan to participate in the event.

 

Greenwood WC wrestled the Carmel Duals and we were able to spread out all of our 55lbs and move kids because of the weights classes. For Johnson County and ISWA State duals a kid can only move up 1 weight class so if he weighs 52 next weight class is 60, now I have 2 other 55 pound kids who can’t wrestle because they can only wrestle up 1 weight class, but this might be a different issue for other clubs. Greenwood WC is missing HWT.

 

I think the reason for current weights is to keep them aligned with USA/ISWA weight classes. Is this something that could be modified?

 

No alternates:

If you have no one at that weight the other team will only get 3 points not 6. However you will forfeit that weight the whole tournament.

 

For all other clubs: What is the typical weight you would say you have the most kids and what weights are hard for you to fill?

 

William Watson

 

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Coach Hull,

The problem with the creation of the academy or "All Star" division is that most of the kids that would be on teams like Contenders, Red Cobra, RWA, Outlaws and CIA are from a community that has an elementary dual team already entered.  So this means if they would sign up and attend the "All Star" division then they would be depleating their own community team and some of the community teams would then be put in a worse position of filling their teams and having to deal with more FF's. 

 

I believe MCWC is comprised of kids from numerous Evansville and surrounding area schools that during this same time participate in their own version of a County Tournament and as we have seen above Club Madison has started an opportunity for teams that do not meet the criteria for Team State to still have an opportunity to get out there and compete.

 

I know there are teams at all of the duals that I have attended this season so far (including my own team) that have open spots in their line-up and would love to fill those with kids from your team and other teams to allow the kids to get mat time and not have to FF a weight class at any given dual.  As is outlined in the State Team Dual rules teams from various size school corporations are allowed a certain number of wildcards (out of community kids) and if you or any other coach have kids that would be able to fill one of these weight classes for a team in need and can reach out to that team to possibly fill one of their own open wild card spots with one of your wrestlers then I think you should jump at that opportunity to make that call. 

 

As Matt has stated above the ISWA board is certainly taking all suggestions and making notes on how we can make this event better and better for all involved and everyones opinions are being registered. 

 

Not all of the above ideas in this thread are do-able however but we have to have a place for people to make helpfull suggesstions and vent frustrations so that we can then sort out what will make Indiana Wrestling better and a more positive experience for the kids because at the end of the day that is what its about and the MOST IMPORTANT thing.

 

To everyone above thank you for your comments and posts and if you have any questions that I can personally discuss with you please feel free to call me at the below listed number or seek me out at any dual meet or open tournament to further discuss anything you wish.

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Watson, I've always struggled w/ 105 and up.

 

 

The only real suggestion I have (and no answer or idea, hahaha) is to some how split age groups, maybe do primary grades and intermediate grades. But how can that happen?? No clue!

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Thanks for the insight. I do understand what you are saying in that the kids on our teams are from the community and can be used to fill other teams who have forfeits.  I get it.  For example, at Perry this past weekend Indiana Pride had over 20 members wrestling for their club teams rather than us and that is both expected and ok. Fortunately we never wrestled against them but many/most of our kids wrestle for their community schools already.  Our issue however is we have a select group of kids/parents who don't want to wrestle for another team and in some cases can't because their community does not have a team.  I get the concept of sending some of those kids to other schools/teams to fill their roster, but that is not what these parents want or pay us for.  They bring them to us so their kids can get better, have access to higher quality training, and because of the coaching they receive with us. Simply put, they want them under our banner with us in their corner.  We can always stick with the individual tournaments but the dual team concept is something my parents have shown interest in, which is why I posted in the first place.

 

I am all for community schools filling their rosters and having great tournaments, but there is a small niche of kids and parents who want more/better opportunities for their athletes to advance in this sport and these academies fill that void.  When I first started IPWA it was to provide Indiana athletes of all ages another opportunity to maximize their potential and our results have been fortunate enough to speak for themselves.  RWA, Contenders, Outlawz, etc. are in the same boat.  I do not want to take up the torch of leadership for this cause because I have other responsibilities for Indiana wrestling, but I do wish these academies could compete against each other so our "other" kids can have that opportunity as well. However, if the academies were allowed to compete in a dual state tournament in a separate division and only two groups signed up, lol, then I will digress.  Again, I am just now getting involved in Indiana youth wrestling and I do not want to overstep my bounds or step on anyone's toes. I appreciate the follow-up and and of course the platform this message board provides for us to bounce ideas around and sharpen each other....all in the name of Indiana wrestling.

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I was under the impression that the ISWA established the "wild cards" to in fact assist the smaller clubs fill their roster for the state tournament not to bolster their roster with out of club all stars. I was also under the impression, albeit naïve, that the "wild cards" weren't necessary for these local duals. The idea was at the local duals coaches would work together to fill in roster holes and get kids valuable mat time. I make it perfectly clear to our parents that we will not be winning any elementary state duals championships or for that matter, probably not bringing home any Yorktown, Perry or any other duals trophies. What I do make clear is that every kid from Franklin will get an equal opportunity to wear a Franklin team singlet and represent their club and community regardless of skill level. Where we have multiple kids, we simply rotate. Our parents understand this and also understand that at times this leads to mismatches. However, I still believe a lot can be learned from a good old fashioned butt whoopin' on the mat. My ego can handle the utter shame (sarcasm) of losing at the elementary level. My role and the role of our parents is to ensure that Franklin kids continue to come into the room year after year with an opportunity to wrestle. Also, my son does utilize the academies to supplement his training. However, he never misses a club practice and the idea of him wrestling for one of the academies over his home team would send Coach Hasseman into cardiac arrest and have me fearing for my life around town! I believe the ISWA has done what they can with these duals, but unfortunately, as is with many other sports, the parents, coaches and the people that represent these duals are the biggest problem. I just try and keep in mind that the trophies in our wrestling room are high school trophies, not elementary ones.

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We (Indian Creek) are hosting the Johnson County Elementary Duals tournament on Saturday after the Johnson County High School tournament.  We are trying to build excitement for Johnson County wrestling and give the Johnson county kids a "shot" at each other.   

 

One of things that we didn't want was an all-star team, we wanted the Johnson county (Indian Creek, Center Grove, Greenwood, Whiteland & Franklin) club kids competing against each other, so we are not allowing "wild-cards".  The members of each team must attend school within the same school district of which the participating club is located. Exceptions: Wrestlers who are home schooled or attend a private school outside your school district may also be considered part of your team.   In order to not penalize teams for not having a full team lineup, if you do NOT weigh someone in at a weight class and you have to forfeit that weight class during a dual meet, the team receiving the forfeit will receive 3 team points instead of 6 team points. If you forfeit a weight class with no wrestler weighing in, you must forfeit that weight class for ALL dual meets in the tournament. If you weigh any wrestler in at a weight class and if you forfeit that weight class for any reason, the team receiving the forfeit will receive the standard 6 team points.  This should help with less than full teams and giving up 3 team points is "easier" to recover from the team stand point.  

 

We also chose to utilize the 17 ISWA weight classes for this tournament.  Since the ISWA chose to use those weight classes there was no need for use "to reinvent the wheel".

 

I personally like the two tiered weight class system we used to see a little, but there are MORE weight classes (25 total) to fill and that can add to more forfeits. The two tiered system was 8 & Under (40,45,50,54,58,63,69,78,90,110) and 9 & older (55,60,63,66,69,73,77,81,86,91,100,110,120,145,175). 

 

I think when the academy division was first introduced for the state tournament, there weren't as many academies as there are now. It might be time to add that division back.  Also the academy division was going to be wrestled on a different day than the community based teams division, this would have allowed the academy kids to wrestle for their academy and then the next day wrestle for their club.

 

Neil

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A few random thoughts from a small school club after reading the above. 

We feed a high school with an enrollment of 400 kids total. 

Last year was our first crack at the State Duals and we had a great time. We struggle to fill the upper weights. I am 2-3 deep from 65-85.

I tell our parents and kids that I will never bump one of our kids for a "wildcard". We take all kids that want to be part of our dual team. We substitute throughout the day and give each kid a chance to wrestle as part of the team. We finish in the middle of the pack at local tourneys and were winless at the State Duals last year. Last weekend we took a team to a local tourney and were able to fill all but the 40, 115, and 175 with our kids. Our goal is to develop the team aspect of our sport and prepare our kids for that when they reach HS. The academies have really improved the quality of wrestling for the younger kids. The fact is most of these academies are located in larger cities/ metropolitan areas and the smaller rural clubs will have to overcome this to compete. 

 

Maybe it is time for an All star division and a community division. You could eliminate wild cards altogether and adjust Forfeit points down to 3 or 4 for the community division. My experience with duals so far is that some teams are all about the win no matter what and will fill their roster with all stars for a local event. And some clubs are about developing their own kids. 

We will continue to participate in the State Duals for the experience it gives our kids to compete against the best clubs our state has to offer. We have set our goal this year to win a couple duals at the State event.

Tony Currie

Adams Central 

Jet Wrestling Club

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"I do not want to hijack this thread", but that's exactly what I did...hmmmmm wouldn't have anything to do with "Trophy Chasing" originating in the Avon area now would it?? just curious

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I think there are a couple things that could be done for the duals portion but it wouldn't always fit the needs of everyone(always hard when there's more than 1 person involved.) I think it will be about time to add the academy division back to elem. team state. A simple call to the private clubs would certainly get a response from them if they'd be interested. This could be held a different date than the community elem. duals or maybe even after the community duals? Or even if one the academies wanted to host their own All-Star Challenge or something, getting some things situated the ISWA could come on board with them? Then maybe also for the community division a large and small division(maybe based on USA card memberships, not school size?), modifying the weight classes would be an option. Since most small schools don't have large teams they could eliminate 4-5 weight classes and lower the forfeits down in points as others have said. Just some ideas thrown out there. Anyway to get more mat time along with getting clubs recognized is always a good thing. 

 

Mattyb - As for our numbers being down, Whiteland is apparently a "powerhouse" football school all the sudden and that has coincided with our numbers dropping lately. Couple of years ago, we were registering 60 kids on average pretty easily. Once a kid hits that bantam football program, it's drilled into their heads, they need to work on footwork, strength and football. Whiteland football staff hasn't taken a liking to wrestling yet for some reason, so it's hard for us to get some of those kids and dads to take interests in the wrestling program. I still don't think some of the coaches are catching on that, half of the starting defense and o-line are wrestlers or at least wrestled for a couple years. We typically hand out flyers to the youth football program after practices and after their awards ceremony where all of the kids are at. Many of the youth coaches and parents don't realize know how much wrestling can help them in football and other sports as well. Now if we could only get those kids that are on the court and dribbling in their shorts, over onto a mat instead, we'd be set.  

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This is all true. Also here in indiana every big kid thinks that he is a basket ball player. It has always been a struggle to fill upper weights at all levels (national teams included). We did eliminate one upper weight class since the inception of these duals. A look at the weights is in order. I assure you all that I will bring this up at our next meeting and we will discuss it.

 

We will also rehash the all star tourney. Good stuff. Thanks for the input.

 

With all of this said, we are about to host the largest community based state elementary state championships in the history of the USA. I look forward to an exciting and fun tournament!

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Since it's that time of year again I figured I would bump this.  So how many big schools will bump out their kids and bring in studs from around the state.

Edited by lewdwar

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Not to highjack this thread....... but I think some good can come from this chat.

 

I would like opinions (for team state). Would you A- Like to keep rules to eliminate trophy chasing. B- open it up (free for all). C- Lets hear and (politely) discuss other options.

 

Please note that the rules which have been put into place have been mauled over by the ISWA board who have hundreds of years of combined experience volunteering to make wrestling what it is now (In Indiana).  Any constructive ideas will be greatly appreciated. Please keep it positive as possible. Anyone with solid and positive ideas are highly encouraged to attend an ISWA board meeting where they will be welcome to express their thoughts.

 

Slaymon- We have offered to do an all-star division (the past) and had one team apply. The two division idea has been attempted. I like the idea..... just didn't workout in the past. We have taken the small school vs. large school factor into consideration, by allowing more "wildcards" for smaller schools. I do understand what you are saying about your club being smaller (even if your school is large). I will be happy to give you information to take to football fields, schools, parks, etc... which may help grow the club.

 

It would be awesome to have a set of rules which would fit all clubs perfectly and that would put all clubs on equal footing. We all know that this would never happen (no matter how much we tweak stuff). Some team will always give up a few forfeits. Some teams will grow and be able to full a team. Some of the larger teams now, will lose steam and be in the spot of the current small teams. One thing that will remain constant is that we at the ISWA will do our best to continue to provide opportunities for youth to wrestle. And...... even if your club is not able to form a team at this time..... we do offer individual tournaments on the day of team state.

 

 

Matt

 

I have no problem with the current format if a team NEEDS kids.  I do have a problem with certain schools that are large enough to fill 2 teams, yet drop their own kids to bring in "ringers". That is not the intent of the rule. That is an injustice to those kids that pay dues to that local club, and could easily fill that spot. Our kids know when teams are assembled with kids outside of a certain district. If they want to form a allstar team & travel do that instead. 

Edited by Dwilly

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Always good to see anonymous people on this board spewing venom about people that have done tons for countless youth. If you have seen my team this year you know that we are down. We have not came close to filling a full team all year. There is a good chance that we will not do well this year. Heck... I even grabbed two big kids off the streets of Avon to make them wrestlers to fill our team. Hopefully me picking them up every other day, and teaching them wrestling and life lessons will help them become better people. With this said, continue to hide behind a screen name and enjoy us being down a little this year. We should be very good again next year! You are not the first person to knock me or our program. As always, you are free to call me to discuss. But... For some reason, no message board warrior ever has! Funny how that works! I assure that everyone at my club is VERY happy with what they get. No Avon kids have been left out or do not get what they need. Our practices are ran by former Purdue and IU wrestlers. Our club success is now hitting the high school level. Everything is good here! As matter of fact, we have trained many varsity wrestlers from other area schools too (some that have handed our kids losses). I'm proud of all the kids! Feel free to bring your kid by too. They will be treated just like any other kid in the room. Thanks for your concerns.

 

 

Thanks,
Matt Brewer
317-201-0644

 

Just got a phone call from Dwilly to explain that his post (which was addressed to "Matt") wasn't pointed towards me or my club. Hats off to him for being a stand up guy.

 

Last word of advice... I would be weary of putting criticism like that on this board and showing up with any wild cards. Not going to look good.

Edited by Mattyb

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Matt

 

In no way was this directed at you, and I possibly need to change some wording. I respect all you & everyone who donates their time have done for this sport, and hope the conversation we had clears this up. Also all teams are allowed 2 wild cards.  I have no problem with wild cards. Most teams need them. We need them. That is not my reference at all.

 

Dustin Wilson

Edited by Dwilly

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