KarlHungus Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Karl, I appreciate that you follow our team and think pretty highly of our kids but I will tell you that the upper weights, especially 189 has been one of our less competitive weights since Nate Moore's days. Year after year we have to work in the off season to convince somebody to take ownership of this weightclass. At no time was Bernard, Cooper, Tasseff and Richards on the same team together. Bernard has never went to PMHS. Cooper was the 215 state runner-up and weighed 185 this season(in fact Trey and Logan may have wrestled at 195 this year in the new system). Tasseff was a 160 lber last year at one point so he would not have fit into any of those new weights up top. In fact, it's great you mention Tasseff. He is a product of the team state as is Cooper. Tasseff never wrestled varsity in MS. He was a manager his freshman year. Last year he was 4th string at 160/171 but got in the line up due to team situations/injuries. He had no interest at all in his individual performance this year . He is involved in plays, clubs, school TV. He only wrestled for the team aspect and I can truly say that if there was no team state-he doesn't wrestle. He knew he was our best option and he did not want to let his teammates down. Cooper as well is a byproduct of team state development. He absolutely got beat up on week after week after week even up to and including his 9th grade and sophomore year. He was JV his junior year until almost January. I have no reason to fib. We have always had 60-80 kids on our team at the MS and HS yet still have trouble filling upperweights with depth at a 5A school. We are experiencing the same problem now for Disney duals and next season. Not being cocky but if we are having troubles I know others are. You can spin stats and data but the history of my room tells me all I need to know. I understand where you are coming from and my questioning your post comes from a difference in perception. It is my perception that PM has very solid upper weights whereas it appears you are looking for dominant (Nathan Moore) wrestlers at each weight class. You are the head coach of a top 5 program in the state so that is understandable. I coach at a school that has 60-80 total male athletes in the school. I would be overjoyed at having upper weights with the level of PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyt Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I get it. I guess my question to you would be, is it going to now be more difficult even at a small school to fill 5 weight classes 170 and above. I hear our football coaches say all the time that we just don't have an abudance of big athletic kids walking around our school. And based upon tasseff 's 40 wins and cooper being state runner up at. 215 while only weighing 185, I would have to say that others schools don't have lots of stud athletes breaking down the wrestling room door to get in. We had a 180 lber playing line at a 5a school. I just dont see the logic in adding another weight class up top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 It may go in cycles and it may have something to do with the wrestling coaches also coaching football but in my 16 years of coaching we have always had more and better quality upper weights. Of the state qualifiers I have coached only 2 were under 135. You may be right, many 5a schools especially have their stud big kids focusing on football only. That just isn't an option at my school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I guess I will disagree about 189. Sliga is a stud. At a lower weight he is easily a 4xer. Now he will probably be a 2x because he came in at a much heavier weight. Why do you think there are so many freshmen state qualifiers at 103 every year. It's not because they are all studs, but because the competition isn't as good as most other weight classes. We had 3 guys nationally ranked at 189 this year, including two who finished the season in the Top 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchs1989 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 The only reason the weight classes are going up is Americans are overweight. Being overweight is becoming okay even in wrestling. Wrestling has always been a place for smaller athletes to succeed. Just looking at weigh ins is too simplistic. The percentage of high school athletes over 190 pounds that aren't overweight is tiny. Why encourage more overweight athletes? Shouldn't we at least demand that wrestlers are in shape? could be that alot of the wrestlers put on quite a bit of weight for football,weight training can put the weight on quickly.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 It could also be that kids are generally starting school later too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 It could also be that kids are generally starting school later too. starting school later, or just starting high school a year later..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indyt Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I must be really off on my knowledge of this sport. Sliga, N Moore...they are exceptions not the rule. All of your top level guys are good no matter what weight. All I know is my oldest son was pretty damn good. At the national level growing up he beat or battled with Dake, Mango, Jamie Clark, Villenauva(spelling?). He battled and beat Brandon Wright and Camden many times and also lost to all of these guys many times. He was a litttle guy till his jr and sr year. My sixth grade son is not as good but is lots bigger. In fact our goal is for him to come in as a 171 lber or bigger and I keep telling him that he has a chance(before he graduates) to do better than his older brother because the wrestling talent is not as deep at the upper weights. Have I been lying to him? I personally dont think so. Year after year we have program kids do a great job for us in upper weights who most people would have never thought they would accomplish much. I my opinion its not that hard for a kid, who wants to put in the time, to succeed up top. Numbers alone tell you that. Look at club tournaments going on. Numbers up top are not deep. Not many big kids doing much wrestling out of season as compared to little guys. And I must say this. Just because the 103 lbers are freshman does not make them bad wrestlers. Most of these guys that are good have been wrestling on the national scene for years. Pretty talented kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I guess I will disagree about 189. Sliga is a stud. At a lower weight he is easily a 4xer. Now he will probably be a 2x because he came in at a much heavier weight. Why do you think there are so many freshmen state qualifiers at 103 every year. It's not because they are all studs, but because the competition isn't as good as most other weight classes. We had 3 guys nationally ranked at 189 this year, including two who finished the season in the Top 10. Many people thought Sliga would easily be a 3x, even at the heavier weight. And its not like some of the lower weight classes are not just as loaded or as tough as the other weight classes. And why do we think there are so many junior or senior qualifiers at 285. Iys because older kids are usually bigger. Of course many 103 will be freshmen, because freshmen tend to be smaller. And 106 will be great for the people who complain about freshmen, because ythere will be many 120lb juniors cutting down to 106/108. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW177 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Why take away chances for smaller athletes? What other sport can small athletes be considered the best in the state? Sorry for not sympathizing for a 215 pound athlete that is being left out. Show me a legit 6% body fat 215 pounder who isn't good at practically every sport he does. There are dozens of 6% body fat 135 pounders who because of size aren't going to have opportunities at any other sport. Everyone will have some story about a small guy who is a stud but at the upper levels of sport size matters. Why as wrestlers where size doesn't matter should we cater to larger athletes that have dozens of opportunities in other sports to be the best? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edb41 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Why take away chances for smaller athletes? What other sport can small athletes be considered the best in the state? Sorry for not sympathizing for a 215 pound athlete that is being left out. Show me a legit 6% body fat 215 pounder who isn't good at practically every sport he does. There are dozens of 6% body fat 135 pounders who because of size aren't going to have opportunities at any other sport. Everyone will have some story about a small guy who is a stud but at the upper levels of sport size matters. Why as wrestlers where size doesn't matter should we cater to larger athletes that have dozens of opportunities in other sports to be the best? Great argument, apparently they don't care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I agree lets create more weight classes for freshmen only, then they can quit when they get up to 119lbs and have to wrestle juniors and seniors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I agree lets create more weight classes for freshmen only, then they can quit when they get up to 119lbs and have to wrestle juniors and seniors. or how about we get the big senior to be football player who isnt a wrestler and doesnt care about wrestling but just wants to get better at football.... same situation and sorry, but that sarcasm about freshmen quitting sounds like a coaching issue.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 or how about we get the big senior to be football player who isnt a wrestler and doesnt care about wrestling but just wants to get better at football.... same situation An example of a kid joining and a kid quitting is not the same situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW177 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I had 4 freshman over 215 pounds and all should have been under 171 and not just for the sake of wrestling for the sake of their hearts and overall health. I agree that there are a lot of freshman in the lower weights. My point is what are the juniors and senior 103 pounders suppose to do? Quit sports altogether? Should every sport cater to big guys? A 103 pound athlete is going to have a tough time even in freshman sports when it comes to football, basketball, baseball, etc. Why not allow small guys to have one sport they can truly succeed and be the best at what they do? I want wrestlers not football players who wrestle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I had 4 freshman over 215 pounds and all should have been under 171 and not just for the sake of wrestling for the sake of their hearts and overall health. I agree that there are a lot of freshman in the lower weights. My point is what are the juniors and senior 103 pounders suppose to do? Quit sports altogether? Should every sport cater to big guys? A 103 pound athlete is going to have a tough time even in freshman sports when it comes to football, basketball, baseball, etc. Why not allow small guys to have one sport they can truly succeed and be the best at what they do? I want wrestlers not football players who wrestle. 106 is still small Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Just looking at the last 6 years of state qualifiers at the 103 weight class, I was surprised to see that it was NOT dominated by freshmen. Over that span the breakdown was as follows: Freshmen - 32 qualifiers Sophomores - 35 qualifiers Juniors - 18 qualifiers Seniors - 11 qualifiers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jchas Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Are they going to keep the 3 lb allowance at the end of the season? If so now you have the lowest weight class at 109. The beginning of the season makes no difference. It is the end of the season that counts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 An example of a kid joining and a kid quitting is not the same situation. disagree, because many of these so called football studs come out, get thrown around and dont like it so they quit as well.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 disagree, because many of these so called football studs come out, get thrown around and dont like it so they quit as well.. and sorry, but that sarcasm about football stud quitting sounds like a coaching issue.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 and sorry, but that sarcasm about football stud quitting sounds like a coaching issue.... haha.... glad u noticed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB1212 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 I have a son who was under the the lowest weight as a bantam and now is as an intermediate. I worry about him not being able to wrestle in high school because hes not gonna be an over weight kid. Every big tourney we go to the kids he wrestles are a foot taller. What will the lowest weight be by the time hes in high school? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 The weight changes have happened historically around every 20 years, so unless your kid is -4 years old he should still have the 106lbs weight class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 disagree, because many of these so called football studs come out, get thrown around and dont like it so they quit as well.. You didn't mention about a football stud quitting. I would imagine they would quit upon being thrown around shortly after being talked into wrestling. As opposed to Joe's example of the 103 who is talked into wrestling goes .500 with 30 percent forfeits and then quits in later years. So it is not the same situation even if the football stud quits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smooth34 Posted April 27, 2011 Share Posted April 27, 2011 Just looking at the last 6 years of state qualifiers at the 103 weight class, I was surprised to see that it was NOT dominated by freshmen. Over that span the breakdown was as follows: Freshmen - 32 qualifiers Sophomores - 35 qualifiers Juniors - 18 qualifiers Seniors - 11 qualifiers Last 6 years: 2011 ? Boston (Freshman) 2010 ? Phillips (Sophomore) 2009 ? Phillips (Freshman) 2008 ? Raley (Freshman) 2007 ? Eppert (Sophomore) 2006 ? Harper (Freshman) Not saying those guys wouldn't win at another weight class, because they are all studs. But show me another weight class that has 4 of the last 6 champs as a freshman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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