weight class changes?

[HazardFranklin]

I don't want to stir trouble, but eliminating a small weight and adding another upper weight makes no sense to me.  Maybe I'm speaking from a spectator's point of view, but god watching the final five weight classes was like watching grass grow.  I understand that large guys can't move as fast and aren't as flexible as small guys.  It is not their fault, it just seems illogical to add another weight class above 145 pounds. I also understand the frustration of all of the forfeits during the season at 103, but let's face it, wrestling is the one sport where you can be a small guy and be able to participate without a disadvantage.  Not to mention, did you see the action taking place at 103 all weekend long?  They may be young, but the wrestling was way superior to any of the upper 4 or 5 weight classes.  The weight classes have periodically changed over the past 30 years, and it has really changed nothing to better the sport, so why bother.  It seems like a lot of arbitrary discussion and headache.  Leave it alone.

 

The last 5 matches were boring?? Were you even at Conseco Saturday??Miss a few matches maybe...like Trey Reeses stick?  ;D

[1oldwrestler]

If you do the research I would bet that there were at twice as many freshman state qualifiers at 103 and 112 the past five years than 119 and above.  I will send you an IndianaMat tshirt if I am wrong.  

 

I don't doubt you're right about that.  Can I still have an IndianaMat shirt?  I just think it's funny how you worry so much about the 140 lb freshman who can't break the lineup for a year or two.  Don't you think he'd be furious if some guy, just because he's big, granted he would be a junior or a senior, qualified for state in the first year he ever tried out for wrestling?  Way madder  than at the 103 pound freshman.  I dunno, that just seems like that would make sense to me.  Will that shirt be coming UPS or Fedex?

[tspray1]

For those of you surprised about the removal of a middle weight for an upper weight.  Welcome to the fattening of America.

[1oldwrestler]

You are making a bad comparison, here.  If you compare that 100lb freshman, to a 250lb freshman who never wrestled a day in his life being a state qualifier, then you have a good argument.  However, I don't recall any freshman hwts. that  never wrestled before qualifying for state.

 

The comparison isn't freshmen vs freshmen.  I'm comparing wrestling experience.  There is no difference skill-wise between the 103 pound freshman and the 260 pound junior, neither of whom have wrestled.  However, the big boy has a chance to go to state and the little guy has none.  The 103 pound raiser crowd say that it's unfair because the freshman 145 pounder can't even crack the line-up while a little guy makes varsity because of his size.  I think it's way more unfair to watch a behemoth actually qualify for state (a dream many deserving wrestlers never realize who have put in a lot of sweat and tears) with no wrestling skill than to watch a little guy get his varsity letter at the end of the season banquet.  So I really don't think I'm making a bad comparison here, I just don't think you're understanding what I'm saying.  

[RASSLER4LIFE]

I know lets get rid of heavyweight at 285 and lower that to 240 or 250! The 103lb matches, freshmen or not are so much more exciting and technical than the best ever heavyweight match ups. To get rid of a lower weight and a middle weight(where the bulk of students weigh) would be a crime. I would trade size, light for heavy any day of the week. Most heavy weights technique is very limited. Why punish small stature athletes merely for the reason of forfeits. Think of missing Cody Phillips' first state title or even Boston of this year really dominating the field. What a tragedy this would have been. Action versus pushing, stalling. I will take ACTION ANYTIME!!!!

[jchas]

If you do the research I would bet that there were at twice as many freshman state qualifiers at 103 and 112 the past five years than 119 and above.  I will send you an IndianaMat tshirt if I am wrong.  

 

I am not saying you are wrong.  In fact I said in an earlier post that you can add as many middle weights as you would like.

All I am saying is wrestling is the one sport where you can still get respect and be small.  If you take that away you will have

guys that quit wrestling because they are to small.  This happens every year in football.  Some of Indiana's greatest wrestlers started out at 98 or 103.  I wounder how many NCAA champions at 126 wrestled at least 2 years at 103?

 

I don't think I would mind if this was the first time they raised the lowest weight.  This is the second time.  It will be 8 lbs higher than where we started.  The next it will be more.  

 

[Y2CJ41]

I am not saying you are wrong.  In fact I said in an earlier post that you can add as many middle weights as you would like.

All I am saying is wrestling is the one sport where you can still get respect and be small.  If you take that away you will have

guys that quit wrestling because they are to small.  This happens every year in football.  Some of Indiana's greatest wrestlers started out at 98 or 103.  I wounder how many NCAA champions at 126 wrestled at least 2 years at 103?

 

I don't think I would mind if this was the first time they raised the lowest weight.  This is the second time.  It will be 8 lbs higher than where we started.  The next it will be more. 

 

So because it will be tougher for them to compete as a freshman and maybe sophomore, they will quit the sport?  I hate to say it, but if the kid is going to quit because he is going to take some lumps as a freshman, then he probably won't survive the sport anyway.  If my 145lbs freshman can survive when he wrestles juniors and seniors not only in practice, but in meets can survive taking some lumps, so can his 100lbs counterpart who gets to wrestle a lot more kids his age.

 

Based on the data I have, 98lbs was around for about 20 years now 103lbs has been around for about 20 years.  This is not something that has been done without great thought and a ton of data.

[jchas]

So because it will be tougher for them to compete as a freshman and maybe sophomore, they will quit the sport?  I hate to say it, but if the kid is going to quit because he is going to take some lumps as a freshman, then he probably won't survive the sport anyway.  If my 145lbs freshman can survive when he wrestles juniors and seniors not only in practice, but in meets can survive taking some lumps, so can his 100lbs counterpart who gets to wrestle a lot more kids his age.

 

Based on the data I have, 98lbs was around for about 20 years now 103lbs has been around for about 20 years.  This is not something that has been done without great thought and a ton of data.

 

All I am saying is that we have a responsibility to make sure there is a weight class for almost every boy that is in HS.

Of course you will have fewer guys that fall into the weights on each end.

If not we ignore the very spirit of the sport.  Put 2 men on the mat of similar size and see who is the best.

 

[austin]

You are making a bad comparison, here.  If you compare that 100lb freshman, to a 250lb freshman who never wrestled a day in his life being a state qualifier, then you have a good argument.  However, I don't recall any freshman hwts. that  never wrestled before qualifying for state.

true but jeremiah harvey( the HWT champ) only wrestled for 2 years...just saying

[randalllynch]

Why do you think that a 103 doesn't take any lumps?  They get pounded in practice, if they are a freshman for the most they get pounded on the mat every time they wrestle an upper upperclassman during the matches.  Does anyone really believe wrestling is an easier sport for kids who weigh 103 than those who weigh 145.  If a kid stays out for the wrestling team  a whole year they deserve respect for doing it, regardless of what they weigh.  And remember a 103 pounder only gets to work out (and mostly pounded by) with heavier kids every day at practice, not during matches, every day!  So lets put on those shoes before anyone throws stones about if they deserve a letter at the end of the year.

 

Yes I was a 105 pounder as a freshman and a 119 as a senior, and now I see my son, a 98 pounder, get demolished by the 119-130's at practice.  I really don't see him enjoying it much.

[1oldwrestler]

Why do you think that a 103 doesn't take any lumps?  They get pounded in practice, if they are a freshman for the most they get pounded on the mat every time they wrestle an upper upperclassman during the matches.  Does anyone really believe wrestling is an easier sport for kids who weigh 103 than those who weigh 145.  If a kid stays out for the wrestling team  a whole year they deserve respect for doing it, regardless of what they weigh.   And remember a 103 pounder only gets to work out (and mostly pounded by) with heavier kids every day at practice, not during matches, every day!  So lets put on those shoes before anyone throws stones about if they deserve a letter at the end of the year.

 

Yes I was a 105 pounder as a freshman and a 119 as a senior, and now I see my son, a 98 pounder, get demolished by the 119-130's at practice.  I really don't see him enjoying it much.

 

Amen - btw, y2 was a light weight kid when he started wrestling so he believes that he has more rite than anyone to criticize the weight.  However, I too was a tiny kid when I started wrestling in the late 70's.  I started out at 105 (actually weighed 102 but had such little body fat I couldn't get down to 98) and wrestled 145 as a senior.  So I can comment on the wieght class issue as well and I think 103 should be left where it is.  I'll also readily admit I'm biased.  I have a 75 pound 13 year old and don't want to see the class altered one pound.

[feez]

Amen - btw, y2 was a light weight kid when he started wrestling so he believes that he has more rite than anyone to criticize the weight.  However, I too was a tiny kid when I started wrestling in the late 70's.  I started out at 105 (actually weighed 102 but had such little body fat I couldn't get down to 98) and wrestled 145 as a senior.  So I can comment on the wieght class issue as well and I think 103 should be left where it is.  I'll also readily admit I'm biased.  I have a 75 pound 13 year old and don't want to see the class altered one pound.

I also started wrestling at 105 my freshman year. By the time I got to my JR and Sr years I was at 132. The reason I started wrestling is because it was the equalizer for me. I was small and it was the 1st sport where I didn't have to compete with all the 6 ft 180 pounders that bullied me on the basketball courts and football fields.

If you eliminate the lower weight classes at the Varsity we also eliminate them at the JV level then a smaller wrestler is competing at an unfair advantage again. He would have to wait a couple years to be on the same level (physically) and the other wrestlers. Look at what we had at 112 this year, probably the most competitive weight class at state. The semis finals and final were nothing but awesome to watch. If you eliminate 103 these young men do not get that chance to grow into the sport.

LETS STICK UP FOR THE LITTLE GUYS!

 

[mtv2112]

I also started wrestling at 105 my freshman year. By the time I got to my JR and Sr years I was at 132. The reason I started wrestling is because it was the equalizer for me. I was small and it was the 1st sport where I didn't have to compete with all the 6 ft 180 pounders that bullied me on the basketball courts and football fields.

If you eliminate the lower weight classes at the Varsity we also eliminate them at the JV level then a smaller wrestler is competing at an unfair advantage again. He would have to wait a couple years to be on the same level (physically) and the other wrestlers. Look at what we had at 112 this year, probably the most competitive weight class at state. The semis finals and final were nothing but awesome to watch. If you eliminate 103 these young men do not get that chance to grow into the sport.

LETS STICK UP FOR THE LITTLE GUYS!

 

I agree with most of these comments, but the problem is that most of these arguments are based upon emotion. That may work, but I understand the potential change is based more on equal distribution of kids across weight classes. A very sterile, unemotional reason for a change.  I personally would just move 103 to 105. I like the rest of the weights and certainly I don't like the removal of a middle weight.

[jchas]

I agree with most of these comments, but the problem is that most of these arguments are based upon emotion. That may work, but I understand the potential change is based more on equal distribution of kids across weight classes. A very sterile, unemotional reason for a change.  I personally would just move 103 to 105. I like the rest of the weights and certainly I don't like the removal of a middle weight.

 

They are not based on emotion.  They are based on the fact that if we keep pushing up the lightest weight we will soon

have a percentage of kids who have to wrestle up a weight class.  Do your realise that if they keep the 2 lb allowance

the lowest class will be 108 at the end of the year. That will lead to problems that are now being discussed on other posts. Mainly boys are not big enough so parents decide to red shirt a year.

I also am not in favior of getting rid of a middle weight.  In

fact I would like to see us add one somewhere so that we

more evenly disperse some of the middle weights.

 

[GrecoCoach]

These new proposed weights weren't just magically chosen... They are based on several years of data from the weight management program that most, if not all, states are required to enter.  These weights most evenly spread out normal high school boys, as much as possible.  They tried this last year with the 3 proposals that looked at the data in different ways.  The consensus was that change was needed, but there was no agreement on which proposal to go with, so they took that disagreement to mean that they shouldn't change it.  I can see this passing this year easily.  The only question is whether it will apply to next season (2011-12) or the one after (2012-13).  Usually it's the one after the next season, but they can (and have in the past-1995) apply it for the immediate season.

 

Raising 103 up 3 pounds is needed.  Sure it hurts a few small guys, but it is what is best for the sport overall.  Eliminating a middle weight for a higher weight seems strange, but that is what the data is telling us needs to be done.

[thefreak104]

i would like to see a 250lb. class and have on open heavy weight class for kids who weigh over 285. we have to very athletic 8th graders on our middle school team whom both weigh 300lbs. just a thought to work with.

[1oldwrestler]

Facts and numbers regarding raising 103.  These all relate to hopefully getting rid of or dramatically reducing forfeits, making wrestling better for the fans and saving the sport as we know it.  Someone please give me the proposed reduction in forfeits that would occur if 103 were raised to 106?  Will it have any true affect at all?  Wouldn't we have to get rid of 103 and 112 if we wanted to get rid of the forfeit problem if we're being completely honest?  Sure we would.  That's where the vast majority of forfeits occur.  The guys who support raising 103 claim that emotion has nothing to do with it and it's all based on numbers and where average weights are for average kids in h.s. today.  Then they slip up and state that it's not fair that a 145 pound freshman has to toil on jv for a year or two while the 100 pound freshman gets a varsity letter just because he's little.  If that isn't an emotional response to raising 103 I don't know what is.  And if the primary concern is getting rid of forfeits then we have to get rid of 103 and 112.  Who's in favor of that?  Very few on this board I'd wager. 

[mtv2112]

Facts and numbers regarding raising 103.  These all relate to hopefully getting rid of or dramatically reducing forfeits, making wrestling better for the fans and saving the sport as we know it.  Someone please give me the proposed reduction in forfeits that would occur if 103 were raised to 106?  Will it have any true affect at all?  Wouldn't we have to get rid of 103 and 112 if we wanted to get rid of the forfeit problem if we're being completely honest?  Sure we would.  That's where the vast majority of forfeits occur.  The guys who support raising 103 claim that emotion has nothing to do with it and it's all based on numbers and where average weights are for average kids in h.s. today.  Then they slip up and state that it's not fair that a 145 pound freshman has to toil on jv for a year or two while the 100 pound freshman gets a varsity letter just because he's little.  If that isn't an emotional response to raising 103 I don't know what is.  And if the primary concern is getting rid of forfeits then we have to get rid of 103 and 112.  Who's in favor of that?  Very few on this board I'd wager. 

 

I never stated any concern for the 145 lb JV guy. I don't care who sits. I don't worry about fairness because wrestling tends to be self leveling because the best wrestlers generally earn whatever spots are available. What I was trying to explain was that it seems that the NFHS takes a purely analytical look at the issue. They take people and names  and specifics out of the decision making process and offer an option(s). They have data and I trust they look at it honestly. They have no reason or motive to make things up.  When you start worrying about poor little Johnny who only weighs 98 lbs, you are making an emotional argument based upon some subjective concept of fairness or feeling sorry for the little guy.

 

I am not sure who actually votes or approves the option or proposal. Perhaps that group will take into account the concern for the smaller guys. If any of the above upsets you then I suggest you are emotionally involved in the discussion  I am only offering my best guess as to how and why this is being considered. I have already stated my personal belief is that we only need to raise 103 to 105. This is not based on any particular data but just my opinion.

[hammer]

The comparison isn't freshmen vs freshmen.  I'm comparing wrestling experience.  There is no difference skill-wise between the 103 pound freshman and the 260 pound junior, neither of whom have wrestled.  However, the big boy has a chance to go to state and the little guy has none.  The 103 pound raiser crowd say that it's unfair because the freshman 145 pounder can't even crack the line-up while a little guy makes varsity because of his size.  I think it's way more unfair to watch a behemoth actually qualify for state (a dream many deserving wrestlers never realize who have put in a lot of sweat and tears) with no wrestling skill than to watch a little guy get his varsity letter at the end of the season banquet.  So I really don't think I'm making a bad comparison here, I just don't think you're understanding what I'm saying.  

 

Maybe I am not reading what you are trying to say, but my point would be that you are still more likely to have a 103lb first year freshman wrestler make it to state than a 260lb first year freshman wrestler.  I have seen 103# freshmen who are first year wrestlers make it to SS, so making it to state in the same case, isn't an impossibility, with the right draw, and in the right year.

 

I wasn't at State this year, and haven't had a chance to watch the championship matches, yet, but if the wrestler you are using as an example is Harvey, I saw a lot of comments on how agile he was for a big guy, and I would say that agility is a valuable wrestling skill/attribute to have, in my opinion. 

[jchas]

mtv2112

Almost all arguments have some emotion in them.  That is why we argue.

Even your argument has emotion in it or you would not use words like

this. "When you start worrying about poor little Johnny who only weighs 98 lbs".

[1oldwrestler]

Maybe I am not reading what you are trying to say, but my point would be that you are still more likely to have a 103lb first year freshman wrestler make it to state than a 260lb first year freshman wrestler.  I have seen 103# freshmen who are first year wrestlers make it to SS, so making it to state in the same case, isn't an impossibility, with the right draw, and in the right year.

 

I wasn't at State this year, and haven't had a chance to watch the championship matches, yet, but if the wrestler you are using as an example is Harvey, I saw a lot of comments on how agile he was for a big guy, and I would say that agility is a valuable wrestling skill/attribute to have, in my opinion. 

 

I agree, 103 lb freshman has a better chance of making it to state than a hwt freshman.  Not my point.  I'm not going to restate it.  I don't think you've read the entire thread.  The kid I am referring to is TaQuan Walker of Northside H.S. in Fort Wayne.  Never wrestled a day in his life, comes in as a junior and qualifies for state this season. 

[1oldwrestler]

I never stated any concern for the 145 lb JV guy. I don't care who sits. I don't worry about fairness because wrestling tends to be self leveling because the best wrestlers generally earn whatever spots are available. What I was trying to explain was that it seems that the NFHS takes a purely analytical look at the issue. They take people and names  and specifics out of the decision making process and offer an option(s). They have data and I trust they look at it honestly. They have no reason or motive to make things up.  When you start worrying about poor little Johnny who only weighs 98 lbs, you are making an emotional argument based upon some subjective concept of fairness or feeling sorry for the little guy.

 

I am not sure who actually votes or approves the option or proposal. Perhaps that group will take into account the concern for the smaller guys. If any of the above upsets you then I suggest you are emotionally involved in the discussion  I am only offering my best guess as to how and why this is being considered. I have already stated my personal belief is that we only need to raise 103 to 105. This is not based on any particular data but just my opinion.

 

Maybe you haven't stated a fairness issue regarding 103 lb freshmen getting varsity letters but others have that support raising 103.  Whatever.  I'll admit I have some opinion and bias in this argument.  I just love how everyone on this site that wants to win an argument absoluteley does nothing but claim to have facts and statistics on their side and that's good enough.  No room for discussion or debate.  All are wrong who oppose the numbers.  People can make numbers say whatever they want.  Believe me, when some issue comes up that you don't agree with because it's affecting you personally and the numbers support the other side, you'll get plenty emotional, we all do.  It's like budget cuts by the govt, go ahead and cut everyone elses but you better leave my special interest alone. 

[mtv2112]

mtv2112

Almost all arguments have some emotion in them.  That is why we argue.

Even your argument has emotion in it or you would not use words like

this. "When you start worrying about poor little Johnny who only weighs 98 lbs".

 

I am not the one worrying about poor little Johnny.  I was simply showing the examples of other's arguments on keeping the lower weights.  If I was going to get emotional about this argument I would just  pursue name calling and personal insults.  I love a good emotional argument, but I just don't think it will carry much weight (pun intended) with the final decision.  I sympathize with the plight of the kids that are too light for 103.  Mt. Vernon had kids that could weigh in for 103 and 112 in their street clothes eating a big mac.  It sucks for those kids, but the NFHS isn't worrying about any particular case as they are trying to get an equal distribution of kids by weight without excluding too many kids.  It would seem that the folks that are against the NFHS proposal are not giving any merit to the basis of the proposal.  The proposal is probably meant to do the most good for the most kids.  It may unintentionally hurt some kids for what is considered the greater good of the sport.  I am guessing on their motives here as I am just a bystander like everyone else.  I am also going by memory from this discussion on this board last year regarding the motives of the NFHS.

 

We probably can never know these numbers, but it would be very interesting to see how many 103's from last year would have preferred another pound or two.  I have always wondered if part of the argument (spoken or unspoken) to raise the weight was also based upon the fear of too much cutting at that level.  112 to 103 is a pretty large gap, by percentage, no matter which direction you are going.

[maligned]

Maybe you haven't stated a fairness issue regarding 103 lb freshmen getting varsity letters but others have that support raising 103.  Whatever.  I'll admit I have some opinion and bias in this argument.  I just love how everyone on this site that wants to win an argument absoluteley does nothing but claim to have facts and statistics on their side and that's good enough.  No room for discussion or debate.  All are wrong who oppose the numbers.  People can make numbers say whatever they want.  Believe me, when some issue comes up that you don't agree with because it's affecting you personally and the numbers support the other side, you'll get plenty emotional, we all do.  It's like budget cuts by the govt, go ahead and cut everyone elses but you better leave my special interest alone. 

 

It's true that we can often manipulate numbers.  However, in this case, I think the numbers are useful.  The years of research show that if we adjust the weights to the proposal mentioned at the beginning of this thread, we will INCLUDE more wrestlers because more wrestlers fall in these weights.  Why does the smallest guy get favoritism over all the larger kids that don't have the same opportunities?  Right now, there are FAR more forfeits nationally at 103 than any other weight and the research shows we will give the most possible opportunities for participation by making an adjustment.  Why would we not do this?   Whether we change or whether we keep the weights the same, we're cutting some opportunities somewhere.  It's not a matter of neglecting the little guy.  It's simply this: Why would we leave it the same and continue to cut more opportunities than if we changed?

[IntegratedCarp]

I would love two *exemption* weight classes in wrestling: a 103 lbs. and Unlimited (285+).  Both these weights would be forfeit exempt in a dual meet if a team failed to have a contestant.  They also would be exempted from team scoring in a tournament. 

 

NFHS would never, ever go for this, although.