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Kleveland11

ESPN Article on Iowa wrestler defaulting to girl at state!

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Is that how you spell it Decbell?

 

I had never heard that before about the rules thing.

 

Just giving you  a hard time nickster- you're good now on the spelling

 

I think the nets are supposed to be higher

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I'm part of the unpopular crowd on this issue.  I have no problem with girls being involved in wrestling---I actually woul dbe happy to support it.  I just think that they should only wrestle other girls.

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I'm part of the unpopular crowd on this issue.   I have no problem with girls being involved in wrestling---I actually woul dbe happy to support it.  I just think that they should only wrestle other girls.

 

I think an overwhelming majority of people on this board would agree with you. Unfortunately, that is not the reality of the situation. We just don't have the numbers to have a female and male division. They are going to be wrestling together for a while.

 

One of the other interesting things about the IHSAA and gender is the discussion that is taking place right now on losing gymnastics as a sanctioned sport. I have read several articles stating that competitive cheerleading would be added to offset that loss, even though the IHSAA does not specifically want or need to be equitable in the number of sports offered.

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I have always understood that the reason for this is the fact that men's and women's volleyball are played with different rules and specifications, unlike the sport of wrestling. I am not sure if they use this as a technicality or not, but I do know there are a bunch of men's volleyball teams across the state.

 

This has to do with Title IX.  Back in the 1970's SB Adams won a State Volleyball Title with boys.  With Title IX in full force soon after this fell apart, since women are the "underrepresented sex," they may play on Boys teams, but not vice versa.

 

I have coached boys who wrestled girls, and while I don't think it's appropriate, I've left that decision up to the athletes and his parents.  I agree with those who say boys wrestle boys, girls wrestle girls.  I just don't think pubescent kids need to be grappling each other.

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I would consider myself a man of faith, and I have many very conservative family members.  But I still somehow don't understand the 'religious' aspect.  What from Christianity or Mormonism or whatever he might be practicing says that he shouldn't wrestle a girl?   I'm not asking about the 'proper way of things.'  I get the chivalry and gender roles angle.  I'm asking for some concrete explanation from someone who agrees with this young man's decision from strictly a religious perspective.  Is it the thought that touching a girl could lead to lust?  Is it the thought that there could be improper touching?  I'm not at all trying to be sarcastic or degrading--I honestly am trying to understand this perspective.

 

While the strong agreement for this wrestler's decision continues, no one has answered my question about the religious reasoning.  Does anyone have any thoughts?  Again, I'm all for spiritual conviction, but I haven't heard more than "it's not how things should be" or "we have to treat women with respect" or "it's just a sign of how our times have changed for the worse."  While I think these are all potentially veiled ways of saying, "I'm not comfortable with it because it's a change;" I can respect the reasoning if there is some religious conviction behind it.  But no one has said anything about what religious reasoning is behind this kid's decision or the strong support for his decision.  I will applaud conviction.  But what's the conviction?  Once more, I just want to understand. 

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Update: The second girl in the bracket went 2 and out.  If Herkleman loses her quarterfinal match as expected, there's no way Nordrup will meet her again except in a consolation final match (3rd, 5th or 7th-place match).  Nordrup cruised in his first wrestle-back match.

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I grew up 20 miles west of Ottumwa..  M. Black is a great wrestler as her father Jason Black.  Jason was a 4 time state qualifier.

What most people don't know is 3A schools in Iowa only have districts, then state.  You must place in the top 2 out of 8 at districts to qualify.. There is only 64 teams in 3A.  The girls wouldn't have a chance in Indiana..  Sure there is tough competitors but the fact is that some weight classes are weak.  1A and 2A have sectionals then districts then state.  I think it is great for the girls.  Lets go Albia!

 

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Do you really want a theological discussion about gender roles?    

 

Well, kind of.  I'm not wanting anyone's PhD thesis on the topic, but I wouldn't mind a simple statement of what it is exactly that could be seen as forbidden if a girl wrestles competitively against a boy.  I know scripture quite well, and I'm curious what the reasoning is.  That's all.  If it just doesn't "seem" like something womanly and that's all the answer I'll get, that's fine.  I don't want to be a jerk about it.  I'm honestly and truly just curious where people are coming from.

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I personally feel that girls should not be competing in this sport with boys. I also agree that until they have a division of their own. They do not have a choice. As we all know, we have a few young ladies that wrestle here in Indiana. Young Miss Miracle beats most of the boys she wrestles. She is a technician. She does not win because the boys do not wrestle her like they would another boy. Any of them that know her, knows that if they slack off. They will soon be on their back. I have nothing but respect for her and any other girls decision to take on the boys.

I guess it is because I am an old fart and would not allow a daughter to compete in a contact sport with boys. In saying that. My statement does not mean that they are wrong and I am right. Just that I would have made differant decisions than them. As long as the powers that be allow it. More power to them.

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My son had to wrestle 1 girl in his career.  After that my wife said he will never do that again.

He has sense forfeited a few matches.  I am not sure what we would do if this would happen at

at State.  All I know is that it makes us extremely uncomfortable.  With that said I would never

take away a girls right to compete.  It is our problem not theirs.

 

 

This causes me great concern.  You can not look at another WRESTLER as a boy or a girl, it is another WRESTLER, that has made the same commitment as your wrestler. 

 

I have seen it many times at middle schools that an overconfident boy wrestler thinks he is going to go out there a beat a girl, then gets his lunch handed to him.

 

Then all the talk is how boy A got beat by a girl. 

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Speaking of title IX.  If this is the case and girls can also wrestle in college then we should never lose another program to it.  All I know is that my boys are going to play softball when they get into high school.

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This causes me great concern.   You can not look at another WRESTLER as a boy or a girl, it is another WRESTLER, that has made the same commitment as your wrestler.   

 

I have seen it many times at middle schools that an overconfident boy wrestler thinks he is going to go out there a beat a girl, then gets his lunch handed to him.

 

Then all the talk is how boy A got beat by a girl.   

 

 

This has nothing to do with overconfident boys.  For my son it has to do with how you treat girls.  He has 2 younger sisters and I have told him several times that he is to protect his sisters at all cost!  He has never once pushed, shoved, or raised a finger in anger at them.  Believe me when I say that this takes a great deal of self control. 

He is also supposed to treat all other girls or women as he does his sisters and mother.  This is something that is hard to

turn off just because you are on a wrestling mat and I am not sure I want him to.  Read the book,  Raising a modern day Knight and you may understand a little more where we are coming from.

 

I will also say once again that I feel like this is not the problem of the female wrestler.  She has every right to comete in

the sport.  It is just naive to think that in many cases this make the boy very, very uncomfortable. 

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My opinion has always been it is a "no win" situation for the boy wrestler when he is forced to wrestle a girl. If you have raised your young man to properly repect the female gender and give preferential treatment to the fairer sex then you understand why it is hard for a boy to wrestle a girl! They just can't win! if they beat her up they feel bad---or they should---and if they would happen to lose they get totally ridiculed.

 

Holy Cow! do you ever remember wrestling around with a girl just for fun as a young boy and how ackwared that was??

 

My grandson Joe Kieffer wrestled a girl at team regional and it was painful to watch and I was embarrased for him.If that girl would have been a boy with similiar talent he would have been pinned in the first 20 secs. It is very hard to give a hard crossface or grab a high crotch with a half nelson on a young lady. I don't care if they put their hair up and wear sports bras or whatever! You could just almost see Joe trying to figure out how to take her down without hurting her and how to end the match without having to lay on her or come in contact with her private parts.

It is just different,as it was he teched her and thankfully it ended .

Girls need to wrestle other girls.Period.

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I am surprised so many of you on here agree with the kid.  I think you are just scared of girls, haha

 

lol......my son had to wrestle a girl in his second match ever at about 9 years old.....he said to me "dad, i have to wresle a girl in my next match!"....i said "well, just wrestle her like you did the first kid"......he went out there and got pinned in about 30 seconds, came off the mat crying ready to give up wrestling.....afterwards i was talking to her parents and found out she had placed 2nd at the state folkstyle meet the year before......that made him and me feel a little better....lol....scared of girls?.....sometimes....the lesson for him that day was that women can and will kick your ass more than once in your life and in more than one way.......so it is.......

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My thoughts are the same as most of you guys, I do not think girls should be wrestling boys. I have had this argument with my two daughters numerous times, about the touching and grabbing. Heck my girls do not even like other people touching them,  but in the end I lost the battle and my twins are wrestling.  I won?t lie, it is tough to watch not knowing what is going to happen. Yes, there is always someone in the stands making some type of comment about it. But let us look at all of the facts, there are not enough girls to form a girls division in the state of Indiana the numbers are just not there. So until that happens, the girls will be wrestling the boys and life moves on.  Also remember everyone used to say that girls could not handle playing football because it was so rough. But guess what, there has been some girls doing that also.

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I feel like i'm alone on this wall.  It's a girl who made a decision to wrestle with boys.  We are taught to leave emotion at the door.  I've wrestled girls before and you are more conscience about not hitting a high crotch or a butt drag or even pinning them with your stuff in their face.  I bring this up because you are mentally conscience that you are wrestling a girl and should respect them at all times.  But to forfeit your season because you don't want to wrestle a girl is your problem.  Do you think that girl wanted to win like that.  It's bad for our sport.  Go out there and wrestle her.  

 

Once you learn to quit, it becomes a habit. -Lombardi-

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Interesting discussion...quite revealing actually. I'm sure similar rationalizations were offered during the civil rights movement in regards to the participation of athletes of color in sports with white athletes.  Note: I'm not calling anyone a racist, but the parallel's in the debate are noteworthy. I shudder to think what the response would be on this forum (and in the wrestling community at-large) when an openly gay male wrestler competes in Indiana.

IUPsych

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Interesting discussion...quite revealing actually. I'm sure similar rationalizations were offered during the civil rights movement in regards to the participation of athletes of color in sports with white athletes.  Note: I'm not calling anyone a racist, but the parallel's in the debate are noteworthy. I shudder to think what the response would be on this forum (and in the wrestling community at-large) when an openly gay male wrestler competes in Indiana.

IUPsych

 

Not even close to the same!!!!!!!!!!!

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Interesting discussion...quite revealing actually. I'm sure similar rationalizations were offered during the civil rights movement in regards to the participation of athletes of color in sports with white athletes.  Note: I'm not calling anyone a racist, but the parallel's in the debate are noteworthy. I shudder to think what the response would be on this forum (and in the wrestling community at-large) when an openly gay male wrestler competes in Indiana.

IUPsych

 

Parallels?  Do tell.

 

As one commentator rightly pointed out (on another site), "Inter-sex wrestling should only be private and only after the wedding." 

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He didn't quit.  This is like Sandy Koufax not pitching on Yom Kippur.  It is not quitting.  It is a decision made because the individual believes that it is the correct decision to make.  And since you are quoting Lombardi, what do you think he would have thought about girls wrestling boys?

 

 

 

He Quit on his season.  Just because he didn't wrestle the match doesn't mean he didn't quit. 

 

I think what IUPsych is trying to say no matter how subtle it was...it was a "form" of discrimination.  Like I said before.  Girls are in our sport get over it.

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He Quit on his season.  Just because he didn't wrestle the match doesn't mean he didn't quit. 

 

I think what IUPsych is trying to say no matter how subtle it was...it was a "form" of discrimination.  Like I said before.  Girls are in our sport get over it.

 

No he didn't.  He is still alive in the tournament.  In fact, he is at the same place in the bracket as the girl he was supposed to wrestle.  If he wins and she loses, his season will have lasted longer than hers.

 

Is it not discriminatory to force him to wrestle a girl if it is against his religious convictions?  Are you not discriminating against his religion?  He made a choice.  Get over it.

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