Silence Dogood Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 7 out of the 8 teams in this years Team state are 5a schools. Delphi, Mater Dei, Roncalli, and Bellmont are not 5a schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bharmon01 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I said to myself I was not getting back on here but when you delete a post I have to. Why did you delete nicksters post? All he said was whatever y2. Now for the record we have proposed class wrestling in the past like JD put on here a few months ago. You guys just don't get it - the IHSAA is not going to class wrestling unless it is ready to class all individual sports. You can propose all you want and come up with all kinds of great ideas, but they will decide if they want it or not. The statement was made months ago "Even if it's standing room only, this will be the last year" (team state). I believe the IHSAA wants only one champion and they like the old individual format the best. I think you will find coaches will agree to class the team tournament, but most would be infavor of the individual staying one class. I might be wrong, but I just don't think classing wrestling will create this explosion of kids participating in wrestling. Wrestling is just such a tough sport and our society is becoming softer by the day. You also have the fight with football, which you can see hurt us this year after 2 final four appearances. Like I have stated before if you go 2 classes I think the IHSAA will only advance 4 per clas to state and its a good chance it will be the close to the same 6-8 everyone complains about. If it were a 3 class tournament I think the IHSAA would only advance 2 to the finals. Now only 6 teams would advance. Don't blame the IHSWCA officers for this, they have always fought for what the majority of the membership wanted. The IHSWCA has made many proposals only to be shot down bythe IHSAA. The IHSAA holds the upperhand, if they decide they want class we will get it if not we won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 So do we listen to what the fans and the 15-18 year olds think is best or should we look at the issue from the overall health of the sport? You and others think it's better for the health of the sport to class the individual tournament; me and others think its better for the health of the sport not to. It seems that a clear majority thinks classing the team tournament is best for a number of reasons. So why can't everybody work on the common ground and work to get this done instead of saying I thought of this before and nobody listened so now I'm not going to work with you. I'm not saying that's your position, but it seems like that is how some people are treating it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I don't think it's just from the from the fans' perspective, but from the perspective of the individuals competing as well. At least that's the way it appears to me. And the individuals competing would also like to have a 5lbs allowance the second day of state too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 You and others think it's better for the health of the sport to class the individual tournament; me and others think its better for the health of the sport not to. It seems that a clear majority thinks classing the team tournament is best for a number of reasons. So why can't everybody work on the common ground and work to get this done instead of saying I thought of this before and nobody listened so now I'm not going to work with you. I'm not saying that's your position, but it seems like that is how some people are treating it. How is it good for the sport to have our one true everlasting champion? How does that grow the sport in the areas of the state where wrestling is virtually dead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olemissHC Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Delphi, Mater Dei, Roncalli, and Bellmont are not 5a schools. Sorry, it just seems like they are bigger schools. I don't pay attention to classes all that much. I knew Delphi wasn't. I never did understand how they class schools anyway. I guess none of it matters the IHSAA will do what they want anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 You and others think it's better for the health of the sport to class the individual tournament; me and others think its better for the health of the sport not to. That is your opinion and that is fine but the supporters of classing the individual have given reason after reason for years after years on why classing the individual would improve the health of the sport and those who are against classing have given reasons like: A) we wont have the spotlight we wont know who is truly the best and C) we wouldn't have gotten to see Mauer vs. Dolly. I'm sorry but those reasons just don't hold up for me as reasons to keep an individual tournament. It seems that a clear majority thinks classing the team tournament is best for a number of reasons. So why can't everybody work on the common ground and work to get this done instead of saying I thought of this before and nobody listened so now I'm not going to work with you. I'm not saying that's your position, but it seems like that is how some people are treating it. Because there is currently no proposal (that I know of) in the works to class anything this spring. If attendance records are set at team state this year and the IHSAA makes a boat load of cash, do you think this will convince either the IHSAA or the IHSWCA to push for class? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 How is it good for the sport to have our one true everlasting champion? How does that grow the sport in the areas of the state where wrestling is virtually dead? How will classing the individual tournment do that? If there's no interest in wrestling in that area, what will more qualifiers at Garrett, Yorktown, Jimtown, Delphi, South Adams, Adams Central and other successful small schools do to revive wrestling in the places where it's dead? And if more state qualifiers is the answer to growing interest, why not double the number of qualifiers in the current system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 How will classing the individual tournment do that? If there's no interest in wrestling in that area, what will more qualifiers at Garrett, Yorktown, Jimtown, Delphi, South Adams, Adams Central and other successful small schools do to revive wrestling in the places where it's dead? More kids qualifying for state and even getting to the ticket round will help programs build on something they don't have right now. Its hard to build on something when they have kids eliminated at regional every year. And if more state qualifiers is the answer to growing interest, why not double the number of qualifiers in the current system? Adding more state qualifiers would help, but not help as much as classing it. Say you add 16 more state qualifiers, that means 12 more from big schools and 4 more from small schools. That doesn't help as much as having 16 qualifiers dedicated for just small schools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silence Dogood Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Adding more state qualifiers would help, but not help as much as classing it. Say you add 16 more state qualifiers, that means 12 more from big schools and 4 more from small schools. That doesn't help as much as having 16 qualifiers dedicated for just small schools. But when you combine it with classing the team tournament everyone has something to be happy about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabe Cook Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Question: How much difference would there be, or has there been, with the top placing teams at dual meet state when compared to the team results from the idividual tournament? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 But when you combine it with classing the team tournament everyone has something to be happy about. Classing the team tournament will affect about 10-15 teams per class. It will do NOTHING for teams that can't even place in the top half of their conferences. Classing the individual series will affect almost everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I keep hearing how class wrestling will help the sport of wrestling, but then all that is ever talked about is the small schools. If we are going to do whats best for the sport why arent we looking at the sport overall? Why is the focus on just the small schools. There are large amounts of big schools that are not successful at wrestling, and some where wrestling is dead or nonexistent. So why the focus only on small schools when we talk about overall health of the sport? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 How will classing the individual tournment do that? If there's no interest in wrestling in that area, what will more qualifiers at Garrett, Yorktown, Jimtown, Delphi, South Adams, Adams Central and other successful small schools do to revive wrestling in the places where it's dead? And if more state qualifiers is the answer to growing interest, why not double the number of qualifiers in the current system? Virtually dead was the term used. Eastside HS is school with a proud wrestling tradition but in the last 10 years it has virtually died. They have a nice heavyweight who is a sophomore. He must beat the #5 and #1 heavyweights in the state just to qualify. If he were a state qualifier/placer as a sophomore, he would be getting tons more attention in the school and local media. His coaches should be able to parlay that success into increasing numbers in his program, interest in the program, and respect for the program. We in the wrestling world know that a heavyweight qualifying for semistate as a soph is a heck of an accomplishment but the outside world does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtv2112 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I have a question for those against multi classed individual tournaments: why haven't our neighboring states learned from our greatness and went back to a single class system. Why does PA, arguably the top wrestling state, have classes? Is their version of this website have folks arguing against multi-class? Same question for OH, IA, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ace2212 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Bellmont is not a small school. EMD (is a small school) and Roncalli (fairly large) are both parochial so not a very good example, this is why they constantly discuss a +1 for football. Parochial schools do have a significant advantage over public schools whether they care to admit it or not, and I don't think recruiting is one of those reasons. I believe at this point, that has little to do with their successes. Delphi is one specific example that works. There are always exceptions to the rule, but it they are not the norm. Y2 and Karl constantly site examples of how classing would actually improve wrestling, can someone site facts of classing being bad for the sport or anything other than "it's cool" or "you don't know the real champ" against classing. I know you will argue that it is their opinion that it won't grow the sport, and I can understand that, but siting the examples everyone gives against classing means little to the growth of wrestling. Stop using emotions, at least use logic for your argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreparetoWin Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 i put this in another post wanted to hear opinions: I never had the opporunity to wrestle when there was a team state, so back in those days wrestling was an individual sport with an small aspect to team. I am thinking this is how many still think of wrestling and maybe they are correct. So unless the date of the team state tourny is changed, classed or not, coaches will always enter into with caution to their injured or sick wrestlers...and they should because more opportunites come from the individual successes in our sport. Even if IHSAA was to class our team state, you will still have situations where minor injuries and sickness will keep them out of team state to get/keep them healthy for individual state. Do we think because we class state this will cut down on nagging injuries or kids getting sick and try to remain healthy? So my question is, is there a way to have a yearly invitational of 32 of the "best" teams? So it would be like an individual tourny with full wrestle backs...make it a two day event about 3/4 of the way through the season. One of the downfalls are scheduling conflicts with different teams being invited each year...I think more teams/wrestlers might be willing to wrestle with nagging injuries at this time of the year rather than the weeks of the state tourny. I am sure there are other problems with this idea. Would like to hear them. Also...I am on the fence about classing the individual. I used to be totally against it. I dont know the answers and dont pretend to, but I like hearing all sides. So if classing the individual into 3 classes would help grow the sport, why not 6 classes? or 9? or 12 class system? wouldnt that even bolster it more than 3? At what point does it hender, I see 2 classes in some sports, 4 in some and 5 in others. Lets do 6 and that way every team has a chance to be successful and really get the numbers up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 i put this in another post wanted to hear opinions: I never had the opporunity to wrestle when there was a team state, so back in those days wrestling was an individual sport with an small aspect to team. I am thinking this is how many still think of wrestling and maybe they are correct. So unless the date of the team state tourny is changed, classed or not, coaches will always enter into with caution to their injured or sick wrestlers...and they should because more opportunites come from the individual successes in our sport. Even if IHSAA was to class our team state, you will still have situations where minor injuries and sickness will keep them out of team state to get/keep them healthy for individual state. Do we think because we class state this will cut down on nagging injuries or kids getting sick and try to remain healthy? So my question is, is there a way to have a yearly invitational of 32 of the "best" teams? So it would be like an individual tourny with full wrestle backs...make it a two day event about 3/4 of the way through the season. One of the downfalls are scheduling conflicts with different teams being invited each year...I think more teams/wrestlers might be willing to wrestle with nagging injuries at this time of the year rather than the weeks of the state tourny. I am sure there are other problems with this idea. Would like to hear them. That is why many people are suggesting getting the team portion done BEFORE the individual series starts. Of course teams will proceed with caution with injured/sick/banged up kids, but that happens in other portions of the season too. Also...I am on the fence about classing the individual. I used to be totally against it. I dont know the answers and dont pretend to, but I like hearing all sides. So if classing the individual into 3 classes would help grow the sport, why not 6 classes? or 9? or 12 class system? wouldnt that even bolster it more than 3? At what point does it hender, I see 2 classes in some sports, 4 in some and 5 in others. Lets do 6 and that way every team has a chance to be successful and really get the numbers up If you are so big on just one class, why not just have 3 weight classes, since 14 really doesn't give us an indication of a TRUE state champion? If you go to two classes(which would be what I would favor) the number of teams in each class would be similar to our neighboring states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattM Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I have a question for those against multi classed individual tournaments: why haven't our neighboring states learned from our greatness and went back to a single class system. Why does PA, arguably the top wrestling state, have classes? Is their version of this website have folks arguing against multi-class? Same question for OH, IA, etc. I guess the one related question to this that I have yet to get a good answered is in these surrounding state: A. did the creating of class wrestling years ago become the main driving force that created the powerhouses they are today? B. did other structural changes that effected wrestling development years ago become the main driving force that created the powerhouses they are today? I would think if we could do the research which answers this question we would know what the next step in the process needs to be in order to catch Indiana up with these other states. It would involve getting information on the history in the mid-west wrestling states and finding out the changes that have helped other "newer" powerhouse states move up to the next level. But, to me finding out what has worked for other area is key to showing us what steps to take and what issues may arise. Either way, I hope everyone realizes any changes that is made if it be (class or otherwise) will not cause an overnight jump in participation and talent level in Indiana. These other states have have many years of developing their system to get to where they are today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtv2112 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I guess the one related question to this that I have yet to get a good answered is: In these surrounding state, did the creating of class wrestling years ago become the main driving force that created the powerhouses they are today? or Did other structural changes that effected wrestling development years ago become the main driving force that created the powerhouses they are today? I would think if we could do the background work and research which answers this question (history in the Mid-west and recent huge talent jumps in other states) we would know what the next step in the process needs to be in order to catch Indiana up with these other states. Either way, I hope everyone realizes any changes that is made if it be class or otherwise will not cause an overnight jump in participation and talent level in Indiana. These other states have have many years of developing their system to get to where they are today. Research should be done, but I can't imagine these other states would do anything to weaken or take away from their product. My guess is that they figured they could make more money. More money is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammer Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 Research should be done, but I can't imagine these other states would do anything to weaken or take away from their product. My guess is that they figured they could make more money. More money is a good thing. Exactly! Someone posted numbers on Wisconsin, which is a comparable state to Indiana. That is what the IHSAA needs to see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bharmon01 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Again you guys just don't get it. If you go to 3 classes in the individual you are not going to get 16 state qualifiers per class. Do you realy think the IHSAA will give us 48 state qualifiers per class per 14 weight classes? If you go 2 classes they won't give us 16 qualifiers per class per 14 weight classes. Do you really think they will give us 32 state qualifiers per class per 14 weight classes? I have delt with them enough to know the answer to those questions. If they gave us team state they would give us 4 teams to state for 2 classes and 2 teams to state for 3 classes. You would lose 2 teams by going 3 classes. If I had to guess the same teams that domonate the team tournament today would dominate their classes also. It may just be me, but I just don't see classing wrestling as being the savior to wrestling in Indiana. I don't think individual or class team will ignite an explosion of kids now wrestling in Indiana. Wrestling is such a tough sport and we as a society are becoming weaker by the day. Kids don't want to work hard. Kids don't want to put themselves out there and lose with no excuses, no one else to blame for their failure. I don't believe that class team or class individual will inspire some school to now become a wrestling power. We also have the fight with football to deal with, you can see the impact that had on us this year after 2 final 4 appearances. If what you say is true about getting to state, we should have kids beating our door down to wrestle. We are like most everyone else and have to fight to get kids out. I have been coaching wrestling longer than most of you on here and every year we never know who we will have or not have. We have to fight football, fight the grades excuses, fight the its not fun anymore excuse and on and on it goes. I don't think class wrestling will solve these problems. The bottom line is until the IHSAA wants class wrestling for all individual sports then it will not happen. It is not the IHSWCA decision or Y2's decision, it is ultimately the IHSAA's decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tspray1 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 So you are just content with the same ole same ole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtv2112 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 So you are just content with the same ole same ole? Current situation doesn't sound so rosy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bharmon01 Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 tspray1- if your comment was to me - no, I'm just giving you my experiences with the IHSAA and how they think. If you are passionate about something go for it (the IHSAA said that to us). Just don't blame the IHSWCA for any of this, we have fought for everything our membership has been in favor of. It is easy to sit back and say this is how it should be, but dealing with the IHSAA is different. They control everything and twist everything to favor what they want. Don't try and compare sports, they have an answer. Don't try and say your sport is different, they have an answer. Like I said at the fall clinic - propose what the membership wants even if we might lose. Just keep fighting, but remember it is the IHSAAs final decision. If they are ready for class in individual then we will get it, but be ready it will be on their terms. You may not like the final decision. They told us the individual tournament would not change when we got team state and the next year there was no score and no champion. We could go back to my day when we had a sectional that started on thursday and ended on sat. and only the champ advanced, 8 man regional and only the champ advanced, 8 man bracket at state - first round losers out, losers in semi-finals wrestle for 3-4 and no class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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