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Deep thinking question...


Y2CJ41

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I posed this question to the rankings dude last night and was curious of others thoughts on it.

 

Over the past 10 years there has been a dramatic increase in 2-4 time state champions.  Is a sign that Indiana wrestling is getting better or worse?  I am curious to hear others opinions on this recent phenomenon. 

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There are more opportunities to train with excellent coaches and partners available today than in the past.  This has helped those who specialize in wrestling (where you ususally see the 2-4 xers) elevate themselves that much higher above the pack.  When you focus on wrestling year round (even if you are involved in other sports) and have access to rooms with the best coaches and training partners, those people are going to inevitably pull further ahead.

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I think it's a split, those who have been training with the best, usually the schools that are perennially at state, are getting better. The rest are getting worse. So the best are now that much better than the rest. I'm seeing some improvement in the top, but seeing the "average" (whatever that can be defined as) getting sloppier and worse. I've been around wrestling literally my entire life and I'm seeing worse stances, worse shots, lack of setups, and the same few moves that lack finesse over and over from most kids, while the top just keep looking more like national contenders.

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How many of those 2-4 time champs were wrestlers only?

 

The point seemed to be clear that they weren't necessarily "wrestlers only," but that they were primarily focused on the sport of wrestling.  By my humble interpretation taken to mean an athlete who perhaps participates in freestyle tournaments on Saturdays during track season, but who does not work on starting blocks on Sundays during wrestling season.

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I see it as Indiana stepping up a level in the talent our top guys have.   Some of it may be due to specialization and some of it just comes from the level of competition and skills improving at a younger age than we have traditionally seen in Indiana in the past.  We are no longer just developing those upper level skills through high school competition, but several guys are already starting to improve in them before they reach  their freshman year.  

 

I think the academy, RTC, top level camps, more head and assistant coaches with a greater knowledge of the sport, and expanded off season competition has increase the talent level of our under classman to a level that some can now compete for a state title at a younger age than previous.  I think their is a reason many of these top level guys come from areas that offer more of those benifits than from areas that do not have as many oppertunties and options.  More wrestlers are at a spot where if they have a great tournament they can win a state title before their senior year.  I would guess that the amount of none-seniors that have made it to state has increased slightly, as well, over the last 10 years or so.  

 

I think reaching that next level of talent is something Indiana needs to be more noticed on the national level.  But it may be causing a slight talent gap or sorts within the state.  You are starting to see a fine line between true state level talent and the next level down of good athletic wrestlers that have just developed their skills through high school practice.   If we can close this gap through the mostnly high school trained guys wanting to step up theirr abilities it will increase Indiana's overall talent as a state.  However, if that talent gap continues to grow we will have several more years of being called the average wrestling state with a few top level guys mixed in.

 

The question is how do we take the next step to get more of our freshman and sophmores to already have the solid wrestling base to develop more from isteand trying to teach them it during their underclassman years.  The difference I see between us and the next level (surrounding states) is many at that level have a larger percentage of under classman who have alread mastered solid wrestling basics instead of walking in the room green and wide eyed hoping to developing into decent wrestlers by their junior and senior year.

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I think it's a split, those who have been training with the best, usually the schools that are perennially at state, are getting better. The rest are getting worse. So the best are now that much better than the rest. I'm seeing some improvement in the top, but seeing the "average" (whatever that can be defined as) getting sloppier and worse. I've been around wrestling literally my entire life and I'm seeing worse stances, worse shots, lack of setups, and the same few moves that lack finesse over and over from most kids, while the top just keep looking more like national contenders.

 

I look at the likes of South Adams who had always been the joke of Adams County and the ACAC when it came to wrestling. They started a youth program in the summer several years ago and I think it has paid huge dividends. I would say they were a less than average wrestling team who has has worked hard and has cracked the top twenty teams in the state as a single a school. I think we have pockets of vast improvement but there is still room for improvement in many places.

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I posed this question to the rankings dude last night and was curious of others thoughts on it.

 

Over the past 10 years there has been a dramatic increase in 2-4 time state champions.  Is a sign that Indiana wrestling is getting better or worse?  I am curious to hear others opinions on this recent phenomenon. 

 

Option 1:  If it is a sign that access to advanced training is available to the few thereby stratifying the wrestling talent between the truly awesome wrestlers and the very good wrestlers then I think we can say that wrestling in Indiana is getting better.  If the top talent is better, then overall talent will be better and folks that are driven to succeed will increasingly do things to improve themselves in order to keep up.  Call it the trickle down theory.

 

Option 2:  Increase in youth programs as mentioned by others on this thread. Call it the trickle up theory.

 

I think Option 1 would result in more 2x state champs.  Option 2 is the result of Option 1 (i.e. people trying to keep up).

 

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I think there's no question that our top-tier wrestlers are better than ever.

 

Look at the evolution...Kelvin Jackson (1995) was the only Indiana-bred wrestler to win an NCAA D1 national champion in the modern era until very recently, and then we add two in the past few years. It's very possible that we will have our first multi-X NCAA D1 national champion in Andrew Howe. Escobedo was a four-time AA. Hump was a runner-up and 2X AA. How about Alex Dolly, with 3 times in the D1 Round of 12 as a non-state champ from Indiana? Sliga is a triple crown winner. Tsirtsis is #1 nationally by some polls. Indiana was runner-up at Scholastic Duals this past year. There is a lot of evidence here... We have some pretty heavy-duty horsepower with our elite wrestlers.

 

In short, I think our studliest studs would be multi-X champs in most other states as well.

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We are both better & worse. Indiana has become balkanized on two levels: style & talent.

 

Style wise, the state has divided into off-season folkstyle in the north and fs/gr in the central & south.  HYWAY has 'unbalanced' the state by increasing northern folk tournaments.  That is not a bad thing, just a fact. Consequently, many northern Indiana wrestlers concentrate on off-season folk far more than they did even just 5 years ago. 

 

From the talent side, Indiana is much better at the top.  However, the average kid nowadays looks quite poor in comparison to top guys.  We see this in not just wrestling, but baseball, tennis, swimming.  Lots of families (not just kids, but entire families) specializing in one sport & doing it year around.  Of course, imop the burn out rate is higher than ever for wrestling, too.

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It is funny I was having a similar conversation this week with my sons club coach.

My son is in 8th grade and trains with a club in Indy.  We we talking about the huge

gap between the average wrestler and the top five present.  A talented kid can train hard

and beet 90% of the guys he goes against in a year or 2.  The next five in another year but

that last 5 can take a long long time.    The hardest part is figuring out what works against

those really good guys if you are not able to train with one or two.

 

I wrestled in Indiana and I have no doubt that the top guys are way better now than in the past.

 

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A few reasons why ?

 

Kids gettin a lot of mat time at prior to high school

 

What is da % of multitime champs that are a year older ? Believe me it make s a difference

 

Da good ones are better than ones in da past/ however da majority are worse , videogames, da momies boy syndrom , just ain't dat tough

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Is it the introduction of Team State? It has been around for 15 years, which many have stated they have noticed a difference within the last decade.  Coaches have to focus on developing a feeder program to win a championship rather than have 3-4 wrestlers to focus on.  Just a thought.

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I will have to agree with many on this discussion. Indiana's best are better than they have ever been. The top tier of wrestlers in Indiana are performing on the national level like never really seen before but the overall state of wrestling in our area(east central Indiana) is down as a whole and think this trend is actually statewide. While I was in school all the schools in the area filled all but 1 maybe 2 spots in their roster, this includes small schools like Lapel, Wes-Del, Wapahani, Monroe Central, Eastern Hancock and the likes . Now schools have 4-5 holes or more in their line-ups. The kids have so many other options and wrestling is a tough sport. I'm not sure that all the Super Duals don't wear on the wrestlers as well. If they are doing what they should be doing: turning in at a decent time on Friday night and then being tied up all day every Saturday.  I think they see their friends running around until late at night, not watching what they eat and then all the mental, physical work it takes to be a good wrestler and decide it is not worth it.  Indiana's best have advantages many of their parent's might not have had as well. "Back in the day" we didn't have the RTC's, CIA, and there were not as many camps for us to attend and many that couldn't afford the camps.  We played 2-3 sports and didn't wrestle year round or specialize. We as parents have changed our priorities and both parents work to give our kids the best we can. I never wrestled out of state by my kids have multiple times and in multiple states. Young kids are getting a lot more coaching, top notch coaching at a much younger age. I have seen 1st and 2nd graders running legs. I didn't have anybody throw legs in until my freshman or sophomore year. Many, many reasons for both phenomenons. Lets face it, it takes a special person to be a wrestler and then just like any athlete it takes someone that more special to be great compared to being just good.  

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Is it the introduction of Team State? It has been around for 15 years, which many have stated they have noticed a difference within the last decade.  Coaches have to focus on developing a feeder program to win a championship rather than have 3-4 wrestlers to focus on.  Just a thought.

I really don't want this to be a class wrestling thing, but I firmly believe team state's introduction has widened the gap between the haves and the have nots of the wrestling world.  I would be interested to see the number of schools represented at individual state over the past 20 years and wonder if there is a decrease in the number of schools represented. 

 

***Hint hint ancient elder wake up!

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I think the biggest reason these kids becoming multi x state champs is the change to folkstyle wrestling. If you look it's been maybe 10 years or so. The biggest weakness of the underclassmen was mat wrestling. Illinois has been wrestling folkstlye forever. Angel n Alex wrestled over there with folkstyle. That's not the only reason they were successful they did put countless hours everywhere but early exposure to folkstlye prepared them.  They clubs help too but it's more the focus on folkstyle.

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