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Ineptitude of Some HS Coaches Means Inability To Properly Seed a Tournament


RankingsGuy

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As I look at the Jeffersonville seeds, I am disgusted, but yet not surprised.  This is clearly not the worst seeding job ever (see Kieffer/Wright on the same side of bracket at Sectionals and Regionals last year), but it is up there.  This makes me think back to one of my few experiences in a seeding meeting for a high school tournament.  I think back to last year at the Al Smith and how differently that tournament would have been seeded had Karl Hungus, Y2, and myself not been there to speak up.  Off the top of my head, the fans would have been robbed of the instant classic Nick Schrader/Mike Clark final since they wanted to give them the 2 and 3 seeds in lieu of some kid who had wrestled a horrible schedule and had a great record.  You would not believe the slight of hand these coaches will use to get a seed.  Excuses I heard on that day include: he was sick, he got caught, he'll never lose to that kid again, one coach even referred to his wrestler as a "ticket round" wrestler and when he was probed further, it was found out that in actuality, his kid had never even been to semi-state and the "ticket round" he was referring to was actually the round of 12 in the loser's bracket at the previous year's Al Smith.

 

My request then is PLEASE Darrick Snyder, allow Karl Hungus, Y2, and myself to come to your seeding meeting again this year so we can ensure that the best matches happen when they are supposed to... on the second day.

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My request then is PLEASE Darrick Snyder, allow Karl Hungus, Y2, and myself to come to your seeding meeting again this year so we can ensure that the best matches happen when they are supposed to... on the second day.

 

AND ME.....    :)

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question:

why is it bad that a coach fights for his wrestler, and usually just adheres to criteria so that his wrestler gets the best draw and opportunity... when did it become a coaches job to make sure the fans get a classic match.. shouldnt he be concerned about his wrestlers and not anyone else?  somethings may be shady, but if they are fighting for their wrestler then they are doing their job... as long as they do not cross a line and lie!

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You have obviously done this before.....how can they seat a guy below two wrestlers he has beaten head to head, is that not first criteria?

 

My best guess is ignorance to the head to head match-ups.  This is why I feel that it's so important to have an unbiased 3rd party in attendance who has a greater knowledge of the results from around the state in order to properly seed these large tournaments like Connersville and the Al Smith.

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Is this because of an admission of ignorance?  Or just an overall bad idea?

 

Been that way as long as I can recall.  The event coordinator several years back said to win the event you must come ready to wrestle from round one all the way through or you can take your chances trying to battle back in the consolations.

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question:

why is it bad that a coach fights for his wrestler, and usually just adheres to criteria so that his wrestler gets the best draw and opportunity... when did it become a coaches job to make sure the fans get a classic match.. shouldnt he be concerned about his wrestlers and not anyone else?  somethings may be shady, but if they are fighting for their wrestler then they are doing their job... as long as they do not cross a line and lie!

 

I have to agree with this.  It's a coaches job to get HIS wrestler's the best possible seed. 

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I always thought that the idea of seeding was to get the best wrestlers in the most proper spots. If the seedings in any tournment becomes lopsided then maybe the criteria needs reevaluated.  I have never liked seeing a lesser wrestler get a higher spot, that makes a difference in what side of the bracket they get in.  It really doesnt matter who gets the 2 and 3 seed, but who gets 3 and 4 could make a huge difference.  I guess I wouldnt want to make a judgement unless I was in the room and had seen the criteria.  But my two cents is the best wrestlers should be in the proper spots, thats what seeding is supposed to do, regaurdless of what the criteria says. 

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RankingsGuy,

 

We try to do the best job we can with our tournament - the Al Smith Classic.  That being said it comes down to coaches being honest and realistic.  Overall, I think our coaches do a good job.  Sure fight your kids, but everyone's goal must be to separate the best wrestlers to make it a great tournament.  I would love to have you guys there again.  We will obviously use our seeding criteria and ultimately it can come down to a coaches vote.  But it absolutely makes a huge difference to have knowledgeable people there who are not bias and just want to see a great tournament.  Please come and we will use you.  Thanks! Darrick

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This is what gets me. We get no credit for strength of schedule. Our county seeding meeting is tomorrow night. Two years ago a kid from a school who wrestles no ranked teams other than in the county tournament got seeded above our kid who was 9-2. He was 10-1. We draw keiffer first rd and were out of the county after rd one(no first rd wrestlebacks). We tech falled that same kid in the sectional. In the first period. Yet I will bet the house tomorrow night our tournament director will put no stock on schedule even the it's in the criteria. Maybe you guys should come to county seeding meeting. It's a fun one.

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This is what gets me. We get no credit for strength of schedule. Our county seeding meeting is tomorrow night. Two years ago a kid from a school who wrestles no ranked teams other than in the county tournament got seeded above our kid who was 9-2. He was 10-1. We draw keiffer first rd and were out of the county after rd one(no first rd wrestlebacks). We tech falled that same kid in the sectional. In the first period. Yet I will bet the house tomorrow night our tournament director will put no stock on schedule even the it's in the criteria. Maybe you guys should come to county seeding meeting. It's a fun one.

 

Things like individual and team rankings are somewhat subjective and make it hard to fit into an actual seeding criteria.  Yes our individual and team rankings are usually decently put together, but its is still somewhat subjective none the less.  The best you could do was convince the other coaches agree to vote (if this is agreed upon before hand) if they believe a wrestlers true ability superseeds the criteria making him deserving of a higher seed. The problem is that true ability may also be a subjective in some people minds which means not all the coaches may vote the same way if they haven't a solid knowledge of that kids ability.

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I understand what you are saying but there is no denying strong opposition when you wrestle the best programs in the state week in and week out( minus just a few). Knowledge of the sport and who you are competing against really isn't subjective if you are really being honest and you follow the sport they way you should as a coach.  You can't really say at a  seeding meeting that the 16 of the top 20 teams that you wrestled doesn't mean much because it's just rankings. The rankings are based off results.  It's something that should not be denied in order to gain an unfair advantage for your kids. Just how I feel.

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This is what gets me. We get no credit for strength of schedule. Our county seeding meeting is tomorrow night. Two years ago a kid from a school who wrestles no ranked teams other than in the county tournament got seeded above our kid who was 9-2. He was 10-1. We draw keiffer first rd and were out of the county after rd one(no first rd wrestlebacks). We tech falled that same kid in the sectional. In the first period. Yet I will bet the house tomorrow night our tournament director will put no stock on schedule even the it's in the criteria. Maybe you guys should come to county seeding meeting. It's a fun one.

 

I would love to come help seed the Marion County Tournament but will be not be back in the state until Wednesday morning..

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I'm sure, rankingsguy, it's because some of the head coaches didn't wrestle in college.  They should therefore bow to your all-knowing, all-seeing wisdom when it comes to straightening them out.

 

*For those who can't tell or didn't read another thread, this post is dripping with sarcasm*

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lol.....by the way, Coach Patton was Delta's coach in the 80's and Coach Goebel was MD's coach in the 80's, 90's, and 00's....if you're going to attempt to insult people, you could at least get the decades right.  

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Ignorance, if the Al Smith can be seeded, Connersville can.

 

I've always said that the excuse that it takes a lot of time and financial investment to get all the coaches together--only to have an imperfect process--is a bit of a cop out.  Very simple criteria could be used that would at least separate some of the top kids so a potential placer isn't out after 2 rounds and a championship match doesn't happen in the round of 16.  Try this for example:

 

1.Highest career placement at state finals

2.Qualification for state finals in career

3.Quarterfinals appearance at semi-state

4.Qualification for semi-state in career

5.Highest career placement at Connersville (at least Top 8)

6.Best winning percentage (at least 5 actual matches)

 

This would not be a perfect system by any means, but it would take almost no time for coaches to fill out info sheets including only these 6 items.  And it would take very little time to sort through and seed kids accordingly--again, to at least separate some of the clearly stronger kids.

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