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WingMan

Forfiets

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I know the rules on forfiets...the coach has the luxury to forfiet just before the match, however I am curious as to why they do that and why doesn't their athlete take a loss?  It is my understanding that the wrestler recieving the forfiet gets a win and the team gets the points but, the wrestler forfieting isn't penalized.  Seems to me that this "strategy" is only there to protect records, which is a poor excuse.  If a team has capable wrestlers (capable being not injured, and has wrestled previously in the meet or in rest of the meet) and  they choose not to wrestle them in one duel then shouldn't there be a penalty to the team giving the forfiet?

 

Basically, if a team wrestlers a weight class at a meet and has healthy wrestlers, then decides to not wrestle a weight class  (in which they have wrestlers on the roster at that weight class who are healthy and continue to compete in the meet) then the individual should take a loss.  I also believe that if a weight class is forfieted early in a meet, then they have to forfiet that weight class the rest of the meet. 

 

Just seems like a bunch of crap to me.  I know some of you call it strategy, but I call it crap.  Not all, but most wrestling teams have a second for each weight class on Varsity or JV team that can stand in if there is an injury.  There is just no excuse that I can think of... Looking forward to this feedback.

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I have been coaching a long time. I have never looked at it as being a luxury to forfeit a match.There are many reasons why a team might forfeit a match one round of a multi dual tournament and then have a wrestler in that weight in a different round. For example last year at a JR High tournament my 115lber pulled a muscle in his shoulder in the first round. He wanted to continue to wrestle that day but could really only use one arm. He wanted to wrestle and his parents wanted him to wrestle. I forfeited his weight when the team score was not going to be close enough to make a difference in the team winning or not. He only was allowed to wrestle guys that I thought he could beat with only one arm. Why would I take a chance with putting him out in a match where or team did not need him to win and get him hurt bad enough to lose him for the rest of the season? That day we lost one dual because we forfeited his weight against a kid he had beat the week before by 7 points. I would still make the same choice to forfeit that match. I think that if he was healthy he was the best wrestler in his weight at the tournament but he only wrestled three times instead of five that day. If you are a fan in the stands or a coach from another team you would not know that he was injured and why he wrestled some matches and not others. Why should my team have to forfeit a match latter in the tournament in that case? Also sometimes a kid will get hurt in one round and because of the pain he is in he does not fill like he can wrestle the next round 45 minutes to a hour latter. By the time you get to the third round or the fourth round he might be filling better and wants to wrestle. Do you put the pressure on the kid to wrestle when he may be hurt and should not be on the mat or do you forfeit one round and check back with him and give him a chance to access the injury and come back when he is comfortable.

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If your allowing injured wrestlers to wrestle regaurdless of injury, then that makes you resposible for the possibility of more serious injury.  If my kids are hurt then they are hurt there is no acceptable level of injury when I am responsible for someone elses child.

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Regarding your question as to why the wrestler is not credited with a loos in a forfeit: No wrestler is entered in the match officially when a weight class is forfeited, so there is no one to credit the loss to.  It doesn't matte whose name was written in the score book originally. The official results apply only to whoever took the mat, in this case no one.

 

If a team forfeits a weight in one match, but enters a wrestler in another match at that weight it is usually for either strategic or safety consideration. I've seen coaches hold out an inexperienced wrestler who is supposed to face a state caliber opponent because they want o avoid a potential injury. I've also seen them move wrestlers because they feel they have a chance of splitting the two matches where they would lose both of them if the leave the lineup intact. It usually comes down to what the coach feels is best for the wrestler or the team.

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The one instance that comes to mind to me is the "humiliation" factor. A team may have a kid in a varsity spot, that on most teams would be on the JV squad. If you have such a kid that is taking several losses already, it can be a good idea to sit him against a high caliber wrestler to avoid destroying the kid's self-esteem. I know this is wrestling, and I value wrestling better competition as much as anyone, but this can be the reason some coaches sit kids that are simply out of their league. Just something that I have seen before.

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I know the rules on forfiets...the coach has the luxury to forfiet just before the match, however I am curious as to why they do that and why doesn't their athlete take a loss?  It is my understanding that the wrestler recieving the forfiet gets a win and the team gets the points but, the wrestler forfieting isn't penalized.  Seems to me that this "strategy" is only there to protect records, which is a poor excuse.  If a team has capable wrestlers (capable being not injured, and has wrestled previously in the meet or in rest of the meet) and  they choose not to wrestle them in one duel then shouldn't there be a penalty to the team giving the forfiet?

 

Basically, if a team wrestlers a weight class at a meet and has healthy wrestlers, then decides to not wrestle a weight class  (in which they have wrestlers on the roster at that weight class who are healthy and continue to compete in the meet) then the individual should take a loss.  I also believe that if a weight class is forfieted early in a meet, then they have to forfiet that weight class the rest of the meet.  

 

Just seems like a bunch of crap to me.  I know some of you call it strategy, but I call it crap.  Not all, but most wrestling teams have a second for each weight class on Varsity or JV team that can stand in if there is an injury.  There is just no excuse that I can think of... Looking forward to this feedback.

 

Forfeiting a given match is all about strategy and it it no one's business but the coach's as to why he chooses to.  I know that you have to take into account that when you have a young team of inexperienced wrestlers, sometimes you sit a kid because of injury, and sometimes you sit the kid who you know won't last 30 seconds, and may very well get injured in the process.  You also need to be careful not to set new kids up for failure before they develop a love of the sport, because they will often end up hating it and quit if you throw them to the wolves.  That being said, different kids will handle things differently, and as a coach, it is your job to figure out who will and who won't be able to handle given situations.

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I appreciate the feedback.  But, let me ask this.  If as a coach you have healthy wrestlers, who are not new, their confidence is up (all relevant points made earlier) and you are winning the dual why wouldn't you wrestle them?  Isn't that a bigger blow to their confidence by not letting them compete?  Doesn't that send a message that you aren't good enough?  Isn't that what sports and competition is about?  Don't athletes have a better understanding of real-life than many others? As a parent of a healthy wrestler who wasn't allowed to wrestle based on some of the strategy I would be upset.  And the comments about humilation I have to agree with. There is no wrestler that should ever humilate a competitor, no matter what.  There is no honor in that.  I just don't see that very often, even watching McMurray and Standefur tear through competition over the years, they were professional on the mat, got quickly to the point and were very kind-hearted afterwards offering words of encouragement and praise to the opponent they just beat (and I mean beat!).  I know a few wrestlers who being put in that position made them better.

 

As stated, all of this info is appreciated but I still think there are some programs who are protecting records, not preventing injury or humiliation.  And I have a problem with that.  What happens at seeding times?  What about when losses are reviewed to seed the wrestler?  No loss because they opted not to wrestle?  Yes, it doesn't count against the wrestler even though everyone in the room knows they dodged another seeded wrestler.  It doesn't seed that wrestler correctly and probably sets up unrealistic expectations if a wrestler is seeded higher than the opponent that was dodged. 

 

As you can tell, this rule really blows my mind.  If you are not injured you wrestle, if you have back-ups you wrestle the back-up.  If you want to move your line-up around that's fine...but wrestler your capable kids.

 

I have been following this sport for 13 years and have two more high school years to go and probably have underwear older than many of you reading this post.  So just read/listen to my point.  Individuals should take a forfiet penalty.  All of you can try to change my mind but I don't think it's going to happen.

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Sometimes a wrestler breaks a team rule and has to pay the price for that violation. For example on my team if you do something that would cost the team a team point if the official saw you do it you will be sitting out the next match. If we are at a multi dual tournament and during round #1 one of my wrestlers throws a headgear after his match he will be sitting out round #2. He will be able to wrestle the rest of the day. Maybe someone might think that my wrestler was held out to avoid the guy he would have wrestled in round #2 but that was not the case. If some guy who does not know what is going on wants to complain about it that is OK with me. Can you tell me that the times you have seen someone held out of a match, and you did not like it and felt the guy was just trying to dodge a tough match, was that guy not hurt or in trouble with his coaching staff?

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The one instance that comes to mind to me is the "humiliation" factor. A team may have a kid in a varsity spot, that on most teams would be on the JV squad. If you have such a kid that is taking several losses already, it can be a good idea to sit him against a high caliber wrestler to avoid destroying the kid's self-esteem. I know this is wrestling, and I value wrestling better competition as much as anyone, but this can be the reason some coaches sit kids that are simply out of their league. Just something that I have seen before.

exactly!

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Response to "Chambers":  yes I have seen teams knee deep in wrestlers opting to not wrestle.  Will not give names, but there are programs out there that are known for this tactic.  Send me an email and I can elaborate, but will not post it.

 

Creampuff:  In my experience, i have not seen the "high-caliber" wrestlers ever humiliate an under-classmen or JV wrestler or worse yet, hurt them...I am sure it has happened and probably does happen...but I have not witnessed it.  High caliber wrestlers understand their programs and how important it is to grow a program, so humiliation is not in their arsenal.  If a coach (in my opinion) believes that his wrestler could get hurt, then that (in my opinion) reflects on the coach as not preparing said wrestler properly.  You can't have it both ways...let the kid wrestle - or don't, especially at the varsity level.

 

Let the kids wrestle...as Chamber said, coaches manage their wrestlers and punish them for poor sportsmanship and I believe that to be true...

 

There is another post on this website that refers to this tactic as "unethical."  I won't go there, as I don't believe that.  I am simply stating that the forfieting wrestler should take the hit on his record.  That is all. 

 

How many wrestlers get screwed at seeding meetings because they didn't match up with the other wrestler because he dodged him?  If that wrestler had an easy year, then he has a good chance of being seeded higher than the better wrestler and  the "dodging wrestler" may have had a pud season (no real competition).  That sets up false expectations and actually makes the tournaments a little more dull for anyone who follows this sport knows the background...Take the "potential hurt" out of this discussion as it appears that it is an excuse.  If a varsity wrestler can't take the heat "then they need to stay out of the kitchen."  If a coach doesn't think his JV wrestler can hang, then keep him out of all competition...

 

Just my two cents...

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If your allowing injured wrestlers to wrestle regaurdless of injury, then that makes you resposible for the possibility of more serious injury.  If my kids are hurt then they are hurt there is no acceptable level of injury when I am responsible for someone elses child.

 

Injuries in wrestling are very common, but I believe and go by this quote with my wrestlers, either you are hurt or you are injured. There is a difference. Wrestling is a tough sport, if you don't like it then you might as well play basketball. You fight through it, & do whatever it takes to win. Now if he/she is injured, then of course he/she won't participate until they are healthy. My point is that there is a difference between being hurt and injured and alot of people get those two mixed up. That is all.

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Sometimes a wrestler breaks a team rule and has to pay the price for that violation. For example on my team if you do something that would cost the team a team point if the official saw you do it you will be sitting out the next match.

 

Please tell me this is just poor wording. Tell me it does not matter weather the official sees it or not. If an action occurs, that could cause a team point deduction, reguardless of weather the official sees it or not, you will be sitting the next match. Just looking for clarification. If your rules for sitting a wrestler depend on the official seeing it, not the action itself then I have a real problem!

 

Maybe I am just reading it wrong. Giving you the benifit of the doubt.

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Please tell me this is just poor wording. Tell me it does not matter weather the official sees it or not. If an action occurs, that could cause a team point deduction, reguardless of weather the official sees it or not, you will be sitting the next match. Just looking for clarification. If your rules for sitting a wrestler depend on the official seeing it, not the action itself then I have a real problem!

 

Maybe I am just reading it wrong. Giving you the benifit of the doubt.

 

I think you are reading that wrong. I read it as he is saying that if he sees you do it, and it would have cost the team a point IF an offical saw it, then there will be punishment handed out. I dont think he was saying you only get sat down when an official sees something. Just my opinion, I could be reading it wrong. I have been told many times by my wife that I am wrong often.

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After re-reading, I see what he ment. My mistake, glad I did not go viral on him.

 

Yeah. we have all done that to someone only to have it pointed out to us that we misread, or mis-heard, or did not have all the facts. Then we are left looking down at our feet,  saying; Sorry, my bad.......I say enough stupid things so often that I have developed athletes tongue. :P

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I HATED forfiets in high school u bust your butt in the off season and then u gotta beat the scale which sometimes was a nightmare and then u walk out there and then u get mentally ready for the match and it was all for nothing

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I HATED forfiets in high school u bust your butt in the off season and then u gotta beat the scale which sometimes was a nightmare and then u walk out there and then u get mentally ready for the match and it was all for nothing

 

It wasn't for nothing......you got 6 points for the team!!!!

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thats a huge 6 points! Wrestling is not just about yourself anymore..... Our sport has grown way past that, when you can do your part... for your team... then it was not for Nothing. It was for Pride, your school, your community, and Indiana Wrestling!

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thats a huge 6 points! Wrestling is not just about yourself anymore..... Our sport has grown way past that, when you can do your part... for your team... then it was not for Nothing. It was for Pride, your school, your community, and Indiana Wrestling!

 

Couldn't word t any better! I agree 100%

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thats a huge 6 points! Wrestling is not just about yourself anymore..... Our sport has grown way past that, when you can do your part... for your team... then it was not for Nothing. It was for Pride, your school, your community, and Indiana Wrestling!

 

if that is true, then what does it say for the team that forfeits a weight class when they have eligible wrestlers but just choose not to send one out to wrestle?  Where is the pride in that? 

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if that is true, then what does it say for the team that forfeits a weight class when they have eligible wrestlers but just choose not to send one out to wrestle?  Where is the pride in that? 

 

I guess the pride comes from knowing that your coach felt like there was no way you were not going to give up six, so he let you save the team from seeing the other team get a lift. That your coach while he values your work in the room, did not want your delicate mental state get altered by going out and getting your butt handed to you. If you cant tell, I am not a big fan of giving up a match if you have a kid ready to go.

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When I was a freshman, back in the dark ages , we sent out a JV kid against a very good wrestler . Our guy was on his back in a guilotine and won on a defensive pin. Anything can happen thats why they keep score . I'm not a fan of forfeiting when you have a wrestler ready to go either.  Usually the man who loses the match learns more from it than the winner.

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if that is true, then what does it say for the team that forfeits a weight class when they have eligible wrestlers but just choose not to send one out to wrestle?  Where is the pride in that? 

I have seen far too much of this over the past 2 weeks.  At New Castle today and at Peru last week, I watched wrestlers ready to wrestle who were sent back to the bench while the coach sent no one out to compete.  Injuries happen and leave teams without someone to fill a spot.  Teams make strategic shifts to match up better with the other team.  That is part of the sport.  What I am witnessing is coaches forfeiting when they have wrestlers entered in the competition who are ready and able to wrestle.  It seems to be done to avoid certain match ups or pad records for seeding.  I am also seeing it simply to stop the other teams from allowing their better wrestlers to compete and stem momentum.  It makes me sick.

 

We have had dozens of pages of discussion on this site about improving Indiana wrestling and getting the IHSAA to take our coaches and our sport seriously.  Then we have coaches pulling this over and over.  I have trouble taking us seriously.  Junk like this kills our sport.  At some point wrestling needs to be about WRESTLING.  If a coach decides that NOT wrestling is the better strategy to win a dual meet, he shouldn't be leading young men who are putting their blood, sweat and tears into wrestling. 

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I would have to agree with WingMan......  I saw this happen yesterday at the East Noble Duels... 103lb class.  At the last minute not one but 2 schools held back the wrestler and they took the forfeit.. Northwood & Leo....Why not just let the wrestler do what they come to a match to do...WRESTLE!!!  Northrop's wrestler came to wrestle and was denied that opportunity. And moving your wrestler up to the next weight class doesn't always work to the advantage of the team... as both teams found out.  The one to watch...... Northrop's 103....

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I appreciate all of the responses on this thread and have a few comments and then will get back to my point.

 

1.  Pride is not defined by wins or losses.  Pride is just that, in this case it is pride in yourself and your capability on the mat.  If someone's pride is defined by wins or losses I don't think the basketball team wants that athlete either.  You train, you compete.  If your coach doesn't think you are capable then that's his responsibility to not let you on the team.

 

2.  Someone posted that many wrestlers learn more from losses than wins.  I agree.  That is a very good life lesson for  losses make everyone better, whether it's on the mat, in school or in the professional arena that many of us arm-chair coaches live in.  There are very good lessons in a well-deserved loss.

 

3.  I am glad to see no more posts on "humiliation."  Our top Indiana wrestlers just don't subscribe to that tactic. 

 

Now to my original point.  The forfieting wrestler should have an individual penalty.  That would put the tactic of the "forfiet" into scope.  It would allow the team to forfiet...but at a cost placed on the individual.  Hey, new rules allow the officials to be the doctors on the mat this year...why can't we demand that forfiets be a reflection on the individual forfieting? 

 

This rule needs to be addressed.  You cannot dodge other opponents without retribution.  (Once again, I qualify my statements on non-injured, healthy wrestlers.) 

 

I am sick of seeing this tactic (if you can call it a tactic)...If the wrestlers can't handle the heat of the kitchen, then keep them out of the kitchen.  They go to battle with their "hard-hats" and "work boots" (ie head gear and wrestling shoes) every day/match.  Let them wrestle.  And for those that can't hang...stay out of the kitchen and keep your boy home.

 

And for those that posted how important those 6 points are...I agree, how about we let the wrestler's earn them?

 

 

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