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Team State Debate


Darrick Snyder

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I still do not understand why we can't talk about a classed team state without having to bring up classing the individual one. Why not fix the one that needs fixing the most. Y2 you are passionate and I respect that but I'm starting to really think that your ideas of growing the sport are for your own agenda. Why can there not be baby steps..why can we not work toward classing the team title which MOST people agree on...but not the individual which MOST people are in conflict about and I'd venture to say not in an overwhelming majority favor of. I should not say for your agenda..that is not giving you the respect you deserve, because I do believe you want this sport to grow..you obviously love this sport and where you think you can get to..and I think someday a classed individual tourney could be a welcome addition..but right now that doesn't seem to be the one the IHSAA is the least bit worried about and it is the one beloved and romaticized about by all wrestling fans..it's the one people are reluctant about messing with. I will stand by my belief as you do yours..but neither one has anything to do with fixing a team state that most agree needs the class. Would you not want Garrett to be able to compete for a wrestling title..as a team..14 wrestlers...against 14 wrestlers from another school relative in size...because your beliefs that the individual..INDIVIDUAL..should too be classed...I don't know what one has to do with the other..I don't get the all or nothing attitude. I'm not worried about cheapened titles, or whatever..I just think that individual is individual..team is team...teams need to be placed against schools their size because of the amount of athletes that are available to them..but if an individual on that team is the best in the state that is on him..We don't class freestyle, and folksyle state...they don't class nationals..or fargo..why would we do that for our wonderful state tournament that it seems that most people love. ( I realize I am not a coach, and certainly not from a small community or in touch with what coaches from small communities  feelings are on this) I am friends with coaches from small 1 A and 2A programs that have never expressed wanting any change other than giving them the opportunity to compete at the team level.

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amen!!!! sponge bob just seems to be a bit jealous to me as well. As one who wasn't around before team state, did the dual meets still feel as important without the team state to look forward to a rematch? Were there a lot more individual tourny? just asking

  You sound a little nervous to me. Should you be?? Jealeous of what? Winning through cheating and bending the rules?? Is that what I am suppose to be jealous of?? We are really off topic. Which is to do away with team state or not. Sounds like somebody is worried they are going to lose their play thing. Boo Hoo  :'(  What will we do??? ???
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Ok I haven't said much on this....

 

It saddens me that the team portion is possibly on it's way out. I know that personally for me, the team tournament was as important if not more so than the individual side. There was something about finding that success with a group of friends that just made the experience much more memorable... agree or disagree its what it is to me.

 

I feel that the optimal way for a state tournament to be ran would be a Classed Team and an Non-Classed Individual. Again this is a personal belief.

 

Y2 i also see your argument 100% And i even agree about the the horrible argument people have about classed states being watered down....Ive lived in Ohio the last 4 years and for one of the best wrestling states around I can honestly say i have never heard from the dozens of State Champs and Placers about how they felt they weren't true champions.

 

The fact of the matter is we cant get a classed team tournament at least if what Y2 said a while back is true than we need to get the attendance up...if you don't care about it don't go, if you do go its simple...just know that any mat time is good, and to want to eliminate it due to not being a participant is possibly one of the most selfish things i have ever heard....

 

just my 2 cents and they are worth just that

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It saddens me that the team portion is possibly on it's way out. I know that personally for me, the team tournament was as important if not more so than the individual side. There was something about finding that success with a group of friends that just made the experience much more memorable... agree or disagree its what it is to me.

 

 

Would you feel the same way if you were at Mishawaka Marian instead of Mishawaka?  I doubt those kids care a whole lot about the team tournament....

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I have seen far too many wrestlers that are prime examples that being from a small school hurts them every bit individually just as it hurts their team when competing with teams from bigger schools.  Practice partners matter a lot more than a lot of people on here want to admit.  Competing in a Spring and/or Fall sport, as athletes at most small schools have to do, does adversely affect those individuals more so than it affects big school athletes.  If anyone can't understand that, then they never competed/coached at a small school.

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The current Team State Format is unfair and flawed.  I do not debate that....To change and fix it we must first keep it.  When we get it classed, which I plan to fight for as long as possible, smaller schools will then have a more realistic chance to make it to Team State, place or win it.  I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that smaller school fans, wrestlers, and coaches will then LOVE the idea of team state.  I understand that as Team State currently is being done it doesn't affect and matter to them.  That is why we have to keep it and change it.  You have no idea what Team State can do for your program if you haven't experienced it yet.

 

Darrick Snyder

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I have seen far too many wrestlers that are prime examples that being from a small school hurts them every bit individually just as it hurts their team when competing with teams from bigger schools.  Practice partners matter a lot more than a lot of people on here want to admit.  Competing in a Spring and/or Fall sport, as athletes at most small schools have to do, does adversely affect those individuals more so than it affects big school athletes.  If anyone can't understand that, then they never competed/coached at a small school.

 

I do agree that practice partners matter.  but quality of your practice partner is not determined by the size of school you attend.  If we put Jason Tsirtis at Indiana's largest school or its smallest school he will still end up making his practice partner better as a result.  So on the individual side of think I'm not sure I can fully endorse that argument.  On the team side you can have the potential for more decent practice partners to use for the whole team making your squad more well rounded.  In the team portion it take the most well rounded team compared to the individual side of things where it take just having a some studs.

 

On the sports participation argument I again can't have it hold to much weight in my mind because most of the top athletes  I have had the pleasure of know from any school have been multi-sport athletes.  Those who specialize in one sport may improve any by doing so help the team be more well rounded  but the best individuals who seem to go far seem to be ones who can excel athletically at several sports.

 

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I do agree that practice partners matter.  but quality of your practice partner is not determined by the size of school you attend.  If we put Jason Tsirtis at Indiana's largest school or its smallest school he will still end up making his practice partner better as a result.  So on the individual side of think I'm not sure I can fully endorse that argument.  On the team side you can have the potential for more decent practice partners to use for the whole team making your squad more well rounded.  In the team portion it take the most well rounded team compared to the individual side of things where it take just having a some studs.

 

On the sports participation argument I again can't have it hold to much weight in my mind because most of the top athletes  I have had the pleasure of know from any school have been multi-sport athletes.  Those who specialize in one sport may improve any by doing so help the team be more well rounded  but the best individuals who seem to go far seem to be ones who can excel athletically at several sports.

 

Jason Tsirtsis is a horrible example.  How many kids like him are in the state?  Maybe three... out of 4000+.

 

If practice partners do not matter, why do kids travel great distances for CIA or Overtime practices when they could wrestle Johnny Pud from their local school?  

 

Lets look at a kid that is on the bubble of making it to state.  Where would he LIKELY have a partner close to his weight that is of equal ability?  At a big school or small school?

 

It is sad how many people in Indiana do not realize that having good practice partners makes someone better. 

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Jason Tsirtsis is a horrible example.  How many kids like him are in the state?  Maybe three... out of 4000+.

 

If practice partners do not matter, why do kids travel great distances for CIA or Overtime practices when they could wrestle Johnny Pud from their local school?  

 

Lets look at a kid that is on the bubble of making it to state.  Where would he LIKELY have a partner close to his weight that is of equal ability?  At a big school or small school?

 

It is sad how many people in Indiana do not realize that having good practice partners makes someone better. 

 

The sad part is some kids either don't know better or don't care to get better. It's like having a job, you either go the extra distance to get to the top or you do a mediocre job and wrestle JV...

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It is sad how many people in Indiana do not realize that having good practice partners makes someone better. 

Agree.  Quantity and Quality are both very important.  May be an extreme example, as I coach K-4th grade wrestlers, but should be applicable to High School.  I had a gaggle of kindergarteners between 45-55 pounds.  No problem.  But I then had a 4th grader at 70 pounds and another at 120 pounds, with no practice partners on a regular basis.  They both had potential, but struggled getting any good practice.  A good day would be wrestling younger and lighter wrestlers.  Not good for the younger, lighter wrestler and not good for the older, bigger wrestler.   Not very fun at an age where it needed to be fun.  Needless to say, they didn't take it to the next level of Cadet wrestling.  Having wrestling partners is very important.  Having quality wrestling partners is just as important.

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Jason Tsirtsis is a horrible example.  How many kids like him are in the state?  Maybe three... out of 4000+.

If practice partners do not matter, why do kids travel great distances for CIA or Overtime practices when they could wrestle Johnny Pud from their local school? 

Lets look at a kid that is on the bubble of making it to state.  Where would he LIKELY have a partner close to his weight that is of equal ability?  At a big school or small school?

It is sad how many people in Indiana do not realize that having good practice partners makes someone better. 

 

It's late and I'm not planning on continuing on with the several follow ups that you will want to get into just to find a way to work the conversation to your bullet points  so I'm just going to ramble and if the real point is still not getting through then again its pointless for me to continue trying to re-hash it.

 

You really through the emphasis of my first post were that people think practice partners don?t matter. Even when my example was a good practice partner will help you improve reguardless of school size and you pointed out that example was not worth counting. 

 

That would be like me saying based on your reply.  I think its sad that some people in this state don't understand the special level of dedication and commitment it take from practice partners to get one or other of them to be individual state qualifier. But, I know you understand what it takes to get to state and I know you also get that is very rare to find practice partners that can get you there.  I get it though.  It?s better for you to just stick with your small school bullet points.  But it would be nice to just have some acknowledgement that is hard to find an individual with that special demeanor needed to be one of the best in the state and to find a practice partner with a similar work ethic to get them there.  And thus since it?s a mindset school size isn?t the determining factor.  It?s not something you can put a meter to and say one in every so many kids has.  Some times in a generation there are fewer kids with that attitude making certain areas easier to win.  And sometimes more kid has it making for some very rough regional and semi-states.  Nor is it something you can put a distribution factor on and say a kid with this mindset is found every so many miles evenly across the state of Indiana.  Sometimes you can find several together that feed of each others drive and other time you can?t find anyone even remotely similar in the area.  It just something someone has and making it to that next level increase if you happen to run across another wrestler with that same demeanor and it increase more if they happen to be around your weight class.

 

You say Tsirtsis is a horrible argument.  Well just to make you happy lets just say instead of Jason any other semi-state/state quality kid (what most would consider an above average wrestler).  It doesn't matter if he attended a big or a small school by just that person being there he would automatically make his practice partner better.  Maybe not state level better but better in general. Your own example that is constantly brought up about how great practice partners are to the program is Mishawaka.  But to use your same statement, ?how many teams like them are in the state.?  Sure you can find good rooms in the state.  But those good rooms are not going to produce tons of individual state qualifiers.  They produce solid wrestlers and may have an individual with that drive to make it to the individual state level.  A small school with a small room will produce average wrestling.  They also have a chance to find someone with the drive and mindset to make it to individual state.  Now in both room each guy still has to find another wrestlers with a similar mindset around his weight if he want to increase his chances of making state.  And in both room this will be a rare thing to come by.  Which means in both room you have to be at the right place and time to run into that partner or you have to work extra hard individually to make up for a lack of a driven practice partner.  We are not taking about well rounded wrestlers for a partner that big school can probably find but a partner capable of getting you to the next level.  People attend CIA, Overtime, and other areas because they can?t find that person at their school around their weight.  Many come from big school too.  However, by your logic these big school guys have all the opportunities of a better room to practice in so why would they need to go to these places. 

 

Now as I mentioned previously how teams get to team state is a different situation with how practice partners work into the equation.  Yes if most of your varsity is semi-state/state quality guys your team will get to team state that year.  But again how many large school teams can say they have that.  Most team state quality schools are simply teams with a few studs but mostly just kids with solid skills, great work ethics, and no ?walking forfeit matches? in the varsity line up.  Nothing spectacular just a solid team and a few really dedicated studs that happen to be around the same weight because they were the ones with that driven mindset that happen to find each other.  They usually also have a group of 1st string JV guys who can at least give the varsity a decent match.  But after that is usually trails off.  Now in that instance having a larger school does obviously make a difference.  The school numbers will help to ensure you can fill a line up with at least semi-athletes and you will get at least a knowledgeable practice partner.  But filling the rest of the line up does not mean you are also producing more individual sate qualifiers even though your team was a team state quality team. 

 

If team state was the exact same thing as individual state we should see two things.  One, almost the entire lineup from team state competes in semi-state and state.  But for most areas that is simply not the case.  Most guys participating in team state were eliminated before even the ticket round.  Secondly, you would see the top state coaches? trophy scores match up with the team state results.  But in most year that does not hold very true either.  Because of this you are really comparing two different animals.  Though there are some similarities and overlap they are still different because of the dynamic of how they both work.  And yes you can throw out extreme examples and say otherwise that is even more of a stretch of the norm than you trying to claim my example of Jason Tsirtsis making any practice partner he has better regardless of school size not being a good example. 

 

Now if you feel the need this one apart to pick and choose what parts sound best to try and debunk to fit your interest.  But, you know it take a special person and their practice partner to get them to individual state. And you also know this not something you automatically are given when you step through the doors of a big school or lose when you move to a small school.  It?s something you already have inside of you and if you happen upon a practice partner with that same demeanor then that is what gives you an advantage of making state as an individual.

 

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The current Team State Format is unfair and flawed.  I do not debate that....To change and fix it we must first keep it.  When we get it classed, which I plan to fight for as long as possible, smaller schools will then have a more realistic chance to make it to Team State, place or win it.  I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that smaller school fans, wrestlers, and coaches will then LOVE the idea of team state.  I understand that as Team State currently is being done it doesn't affect and matter to them.  That is why we have to keep it and change it.  You have no idea what Team State can do for your program if you haven't experienced it yet.

 

Darrick Snyder

 

And that's why I have a great deal of respect for you coach Snyder. It would be very easy for the perennial state qualifiers to say that nothing's broken. When teams have absolutely no chance or hope to go it destroys programs. The smaller programs who happen to be located to powerhouses tend to fall apart because there's no chance for them to be successful in most people's eyes.

 

My dad always spoke well of Al Smith and Mishawaka and I'll do the same, thanks.

 

Will Patch

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MattM,

So are you say having a good practice partner doesn't mean squat to an individual's success?

 

It take a very special practice partner to get you to individual state or a very special person to overcome the difficulty of not having that practice partner.  This situation is not based on school size or location but based on the drive of the individuals involved.  To make individual state is a different ball game all together than what it take to take to put together well rounded team of solid individuals for team state.  But it doesn't mean everyone in the room has to be individual state quality wrestlers to get to team state they just have to be a solid team with a few of those high quality guys mixed in. That then take much more of a numbers game to get enough of those solid guys han just one decidated guy and a great practice partner it takes to get to individual state.   Now, if its not in some way been describe enough for you by this third time I guess someone else will need a shot at saying it.  It either you just don't get the difference or I just don't have the ability to put it into the perfect words for you can actually understand.  Either the last three posts are as good as I can try to say it.

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Would you feel the same way if you were at Mishawaka Marian instead of Mishawaka?  I doubt those kids care a whole lot about the team tournament....

 

I cant answer that. I was blessed to be on a team that was at the level it was. But to eliminate a tournament because you feel you have no chance is ridiculous and selfish...its not about what is best an individual its what is best for Indiana wrestling...

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I cant answer that. I was blessed to be on a team that was at the level it was. But to eliminate a tournament because you feel you have no chance is ridiculous and selfish...its not about what is best an individual its what is best for Indiana wrestling...

 

I'm definitely in favor of team state.  However, how is keeping team state in its present format good for Indiana when it doesn't affect 90% of the wrestlers?  The same 10-12 teams occupy those eight spots every year at Center Grove.

 

I believe that's the end argument.  Either change it or get rid of it. 

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I'm definitely in favor of team state.  However, how is keeping team state in its present format good for Indiana when it doesn't affect 90% of the wrestlers?  The same 10-12 teams occupy those eight spots every year at Center Grove.

 

I believe that's the end argument.  Either change it or get rid of it. 

 

I guess the best response to that one is this same situation occurs in most sports. Certain schools seem to be hotbeds of talent and continue to produce top teams each year.  Even in classed sport you see the same teams often make it to state or semi-state every year.  The variety of team winning  is much more noticeable at the sectional and regional levels where along with these annual favorite a few other teams also advance.  I guess one of our issues may be that in many areas winning the sectional team title or that school making it to team regionals may not be as highly valued as it should be.  Heck in other sports (even class ones)  it a major highlight if your team wins a sectional or advances futher.  May in the wrestling community just act like it a step in the process and unless you have a legit chance at making it to the team state finals it may be one not worth worrying about.  To me I think that is sad.  The emphasis on being a sectional team champ or honor of participating in regionals is something wrestling need to put more stock in if people want a true team event to have long term significants.  The current  attitude of its team state or nothing is yet another reason we have not see enough support for this event.

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I guess the best response to that one is this same situation occurs in most sports. Certain schools seem to be hotbeds of talent and continue to produce top teams each year.  Even in classed sport you see the same teams often make it to state or semi-state every year.  The variety of team winning  is much more noticeable at the sectional and regional levels where along with these annual favorite a few other teams also advance.  I guess one of our issues may be that in many areas winning the sectional team title or that school making it to team regionals may not be as highly valued as it should be.  Heck in other sports (even class ones)  it a major highlight if your team wins a sectional or advances futher.  May in the wrestling community just act like it a step in the process and unless you have a legit chance at making it to the team state finals it may be one not worth worrying about.   To me I think that is sad.  The emphasis on being a sectional team champ or honor of participating in regionals is something wrestling need to put more stock in if people want a true team event to have long term significants.  The current  attitude of its team state or nothing is yet another reason we have not see enough support for this event.

 

I agree.  It was always a big deal at the school I attended, but honestly, I'm not seeing that at other schools now.  People don't really care much about the team side.  I would have never been in favor of classes when I was in school.  Now I think it's necessary at the team level.  I still haven't been convinced about changing the individual side though.

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Actually, 37 different teams have been to the team state.  Some big, big schools have only been there once where some small schools have been there many times.  just looking over the stats. 

37 out of 311 is about 12% so he is close to right on that. 12 out of 311 is about 4%. This is were he is off.  You would have to look at averages to be more accurate.  I would venture to say that on average  "less than 10% " get a chance to participate. This is why team state has lost its drawing power. Without parity sports just gets boring. Just ask the NFL and NBA. Team state is great if you are one of the Less than 10% .Coach Snyder said it best. It is not fair in its present form and needs to be classed. You need to convince the other 94 % that we need to keep it until we can get it classed. As the IHSAA goes that could take a long time. The majority could rule here. Wrestling does not get a lot of respect in most schools. In other words it is not one of the glamorous sports that people just love to watch. You 8 teams better start working your fans. You better hope one of them is Mater Dei. Which, by the way, is not a 5A team and would not be in your Class. Kinda makes for a messy situation. Just not as easy as it seems. Who wants to host a 16 team dual invitational. That is what it seems we have. The other 95 + %  can come if they want. Those would be true wrestling fans. And yes I would be there. Because I love Wrestling!!!
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I guess the best response to that one is this same situation occurs in most sports.

 

The difference is that the other sports have classes.

 

Certain schools seem to be hotbeds of talent and continue to produce top teams each year.  Even in classed sport you see the same teams often make it to state or semi-state every year. 

 

It's unsupported comments like this that make me want to run a cheese grater on my forehead.  If that is actually true, support it, otherwise stay out of the debate.  Making decisions on your hunches and best guesses is no way to run a state tournament.

 

 

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