SlickRodz Posted March 26, 2010 Author Share Posted March 26, 2010 Then why weren't they with your club last week at Mooresville? Note...I'm not attempting to discredit any other voulteer referee....Mr slickrodz is trying to stir the pot and I am calling you out They did Beach Grove, Cindy refed for Moorseville. Please tell me how I am stirring the pot!? Don't understand. All I have done is answer your Questions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted March 26, 2010 Share Posted March 26, 2010 They did Beach Grove, Cindy refed for Moorseville. Please tell me how I am stirring the pot!? Don't understand. I just spoke with the Head Offical at the Beech Grove tournament and the Freestyle Officials Director of the ISWA...would you care to clarify who worked that event? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlickRodz Posted March 26, 2010 Author Share Posted March 26, 2010 I just spoke with the Head Offical at the Beech Grove tournament and the Freestyle Officials Director of the ISWA...would you care to clarify who worked that event? Jim Littlejohn and Mark Fiddler both, I assume they were paid not volunteer. Why the hostility, what is the problem? How am I stirring the pot, explain! I am a card carrying Folkstyle Official. I took the course got my card and have officiated at the elementary and middle-school level. I choose not to officiate High school or Freestyle because I feel I do not have the experience / knowledge and do not want to effect an outcome. I also do not ref for Freestyle since I have 2 sons that wrestle that I want to watch. Talking with parents at practice this week there were at least 4 matches that were won by the officials. 2 for our wrestler and 2 against our wrestlers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darrick Snyder Posted March 26, 2010 Share Posted March 26, 2010 My 2 cents: I think Freestyle has a place in our program, but it reduces each year. I do think there are skills and extra opportunities you can get from freestyle. Also, college coaches certainly pay attention to how one does in Fargo. This is being said, I am growing more and more frustrated with freestyle each year. My main concerns are the lack of high school numbers at tournaments and the constant and confusing rule and scoring changes. Not to mention, the large cost it takes to compete at a state event. I have so many kids that struggle to pay it. We used to hit freestyle tournaments every weekend, but no more. Our guys generally only have a match or two...they hate all of the constant, goofy scoring changes...Besides a couple guys each year that are training for Fargo we do VERY little freestyle training. In my opinion, if freestyle wants to survive: 1.) Make state events a little cheaper to enter. 2.) Pick scoring rules and STICK with them for longer than a year please. Just make whatever rules you want and stick with them. Explaining these rule and scoring changes to our little club kids each year results in so much confusion that some average kids stop coming. Just my opinion, Snyder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted March 26, 2010 Share Posted March 26, 2010 Jim Littlejohn and Mark Fiddler both, I assume they were paid not volunteer. Why the hostility, what is the problem? How am I stirring the pot, explain! I am a card carrying Folkstyle Official. I took the course got my card and have officiated at the elementary and middle-school level. I choose not to officiate High school or Freestyle because I feel I do not have the experience / knowledge and do not want to effect an outcome. I also do not ref for Freestyle since I have 2 sons that wrestle that I want to watch. Talking with parents at practice this week there were at least 4 matches that were won by the officials. 2 for our wrestler and 2 against our wrestlers. According to a conversation I just had with both the Head Official at Beech Grove and the ISWA Freestyle Officials Director the 2 people that you mentioned did NOT referee at Beech Grove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlickRodz Posted March 26, 2010 Author Share Posted March 26, 2010 According to a conversation I just had with both the Head Official at Beech Grove and the ISWA Freestyle Officials Director the 2 people that you mentioned did referee at Beech Grove. Thanks for the confirmation, whats the point? Don't see why it matters. How am I stirring the pot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted March 26, 2010 Share Posted March 26, 2010 Thanks for the confirmation, whats the point? Don't see why it matters. How am I stirring the pot. You seem to enjoy pointing out mistakes by others..referees, tournamnet directors, etc.. I just thought I would point out your mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlickRodz Posted March 26, 2010 Author Share Posted March 26, 2010 Grecoref..... I take it by your push-back you have something to do with Freestyle in Indiana. If that is the case, it is broken. I am just one voice but look at the comments on this thread. Even those who like the sport (me included) KNOW it is broken. FILA rule changes, inexperienced officials (due to the rule changes not effort) and the expense of competition are pushing wrestlers out of the sport. Take it out on me if you like but Freestyle in on a cliff and will fall unless rescued. Why is it you will not answer my questions? Show me where I have pointed out a single mistake of anyone! I gave the tournament director props for a "great tourney". I gave my problems with officials to FILA's constant rule changes. It is easy to attempt to point out my mistake on the board but I choose to believe my friends over you "supposed contacts". You should take time to read my post before assuming I am bad-mouthing people. Then attacking me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted March 26, 2010 Share Posted March 26, 2010 Grecoref..... I take it by your push-back you have something to do with Freestyle in Indiana. If that is the case, it is broken. I am just one voice but look at the comments on this thread. Even those who like the sport (me included) KNOW it is broken. FILA rule changes, inexperienced officials (due to the rule changes not effort) and the expense of competition are pushing wrestlers out of the sport. Take it out on me if you like but Freestyle in on a cliff and will fall unless rescued. Why is it you will not answer my questions? Show me where I have pointed out a single mistake of anyone! I gave the tournament director props for a "great tourney". I gave my problems with officials to FILA's constant rule changes. It is easy to attempt to point out my mistake on the board but I choose to believe my friends over you "supposed contacts". You should take time to read my post before assuming I am bad-mouthing people. Then attacking me! My name is Tom Clark. I am a volunteer referee (mostly) and have been for the past 25 years. I felt and I do feel that you made comments about having youth/inexperienced referees and you have not done anything to improve the situation. You stated "our club is not the problem". I would agree we have some problems. I have no tolerence for anyone who points them out and does nothing about the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted March 26, 2010 Share Posted March 26, 2010 One argument that keeps coming up is rules changes. How's this Indiana's fault? How is it USA Wrestling's fault? Most of the of rule changes (correct me if I'm woring grecoref) come from FILA and 5-15 year olds aren't thought of when these rules are put into place. FILA has a reputation for being a little political, most rule changes are done to take the match out of the refs' hands and into the wrestlers' hands. *Honest Question* Should USA Wrestling, or the ISWA ignore International rule changes and stick with a certain system? If so, how would this impact Team Indiana at Fargo? Or how would it impact Jr. World Teams? All I'm saying is don't blame the ISWA for a much larger problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted March 26, 2010 Share Posted March 26, 2010 The ISWA has no say in what Fila does. USAW has very little say in those matters (one vote). You are correct when the rules are made they are made for the Jr and Sr level athletes. How the rules effect the kids is not an issue. For the kids level some countries use the same rules from the begining of the year until the end of the year. That would be OK with me if all states did the same thing. USAW would have to set the rules. Other countries follow Fila rules to the letter. At Mooresville they had about 450 wrestlers. Some countries don't have that many in their entire country. Some countries seem to have more club level events-duals- than mega tournaments. Wrestling 6 or 7 times per day is not appealing to the Europeans. The prefer quality over quantity. They also spend more time cross training and practicing technique and less time cutting weight. If they gave medals for cutting weight our guys would win all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbarnett Posted March 26, 2010 Share Posted March 26, 2010 Well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup45 Posted March 27, 2010 Share Posted March 27, 2010 My son placed 3 at the high school level this year, and since he was 5 we wrestled Freestyle. This past summer he was a Cadet All-American at Fargo and to this day prefers Freestyle over Folkstyle. Sure the rules have gotten all messed up but if you were familar with the international style you would know that the governing body changes them often to keep th U.S. from domination the competition My son loves the brutality of Freestyle. I will say the old rules made it last longer, but times change and if your not willing to change with the times then get back on the pourch and don't run with the big dogs. I feel that if Indiana cuts out Freestyle and Greco then we will move to a near by state that has it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTM2004 Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 I think the fact that we as a state and nation are still wrestling folkstyle is rediculous. I know that this statement will open a can of worms, because we are so gungho folkstyle in Indiana. But sometimes the truth is a hard pill to swallow, if you look at our national medals in freestyle and greco compared to other states we are sub par. If you compare numbers on the world level same thing sub par. The reason being is that we put so much emphasis on a style that is worthless to us after the collegiate level. Look at the european countries they consistently have teens or early twentysomthins on there world level teams, with that being said we as a country had two last olympics dietchler and cejudo, dietchler double dipped and cejduo who quit wrestling folkstyle to train freestyle full time won an olympic gold medal. I think that adds a little merit to my arguement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaltHarris Posted March 28, 2010 Share Posted March 28, 2010 I think the fact that we as a state and nation are still wrestling folkstyle is rediculous. I know that this statement will open a can of worms, because we are so gungho folkstyle in Indiana. But sometimes the truth is a hard pill to swallow, if you look at our national medals in freestyle and greco compared to other states we are sub par. If you compare numbers on the world level same thing sub par. The reason being is that we put so much emphasis on a style that is worthless to us after the collegiate level. Look at the european countries they consistently have teens or early twentysomthins on there world level teams, with that being said we as a country had two last olympics dietchler and cejudo, dietchler double dipped and cejduo who quit wrestling folkstyle to train freestyle full time won an olympic gold medal. I think that adds a little merit to my arguement. Darn well said!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Short Jay Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 Why do we still play football in the US when the world sport is soccer? We play because we like it. I personally like to wrestle greco and freestyle more than folkstyle but believe that there is room for all three to help our wrestlers be the best that they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 The biggest issue is the coaches do not push freestyle and greco. If they push it the kids will take it up and embrace it. I really have a hard time with someone who doesn't want to adjust to the new format of the matches, it is simple ignorance that prevents someone from learning the format. The ways of scoring points has not changed other than the push-out rule. A gut wrench still scores two points as it did 20 years ago and the same goes for a one point takedown. Quite simply it comes down to whether the coaches want to push these styles or not. I personally like freestyle and greco because it is a change from the grind that folkstyle is, but is still wrestling. Wrestling folkstyle year-round will burn you out a lot easier than changing up the styles for a few months. Some other great things about wrestling freestyle and greco 1. 2 or 3 "matches" in each match. Kids will get more experience on how to keep a lead or come from behind in a match 2. Takedowns, takedowns and more takedowns. Most of the time in freestyle and greco you are on your feet. 3. Freestyle and greco teach great technique. If you have poor technique you get scored on constantly in freestyle and greco. 4. You don't have to be in as great of shape. It is the offseason and staying in folkstyle shape will wear on you mentally and physically over time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 I think the fact that we as a state and nation are still wrestling folkstyle is rediculous. I know that this statement will open a can of worms, because we are so gungho folkstyle in Indiana. But sometimes the truth is a hard pill to swallow, if you look at our national medals in freestyle and greco compared to other states we are sub par. If you compare numbers on the world level same thing sub par. The reason being is that we put so much emphasis on a style that is worthless to us after the collegiate level. Look at the european countries they consistently have teens or early twentysomthins on there world level teams, with that being said we as a country had two last olympics dietchler and cejudo, dietchler double dipped and cejduo who quit wrestling folkstyle to train freestyle full time won an olympic gold medal. I think that adds a little merit to my arguement. I don't think folkstyle will ever be replaced by freestyle at the school level. Too much chance for injury on a regular basis. Until the primary objective of high school/college wrestling is the preparation of our young athletes for the world freestyle/greco stage, don't count on folkstyle dying anytime soon. The argument that folkstyle is "worthless after the collegiate level" and we should get rid of it based on that fact, makes little sense. Frankly, most sports are useless after the collegiate level unless a person plays football or basketball and those professional domains are right here in America. The most universal sport, soccer, is setting up academies in the U.S. for training in order to be more competitive on the world stage. If USA wrestling wants to be more competitive, I suggest looking at this model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 Three reasons why freestyle and/or greco won't ever be at the high school or collegiate level 1. AD's don't care 2. AD's don't understand wrestling, nor care to understand it 3. The moves promote very violent acts that are not penalized and it would be very difficult to convince an AD that it is safe to toss people on their heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1oldwrestler Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 3. The moves promote very violent acts that are not penalized and it would be very difficult to convince an AD that it is safe to toss people on their heads. I think this is the crux of the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlickRodz Posted March 29, 2010 Author Share Posted March 29, 2010 My name is Tom Clark. I am a volunteer referee (mostly) and have been for the past 25 years. I felt and I do feel that you made comments about having youth/inexperienced referees and you have not done anything to improve the situation. You stated "our club is not the problem". I would agree we have some problems. I have no tolerence for anyone who points them out and does nothing about the problem. It seems to me that your problem with me is that I point out the shortfalls of Freestyle without doing anything to help in the improvement. I say to you that in-spite of the shortfalls of Freestyle, I take both of my boys to a Freestyle tourneys every weekend in the state of Indiana. I challenge you to show me how I could support the sport more!? We as a state have a right to make adjustments to the FILA rules. This we must do. That would enable us to continue using wrestlers for officials, half-mats (no push-outs for older age groups) and improve numbers and lessen confusion. Unlike you I have not been an official for 25 years, it is guys like you .... not me who must save Freestyle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Wrestling Fanpage Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 JUST WRESTLE!! Coaches need to learn the rules so the kids can understand more. Freestyle state always brings out the best kids Howe, Hump, Spencer all were great to watch wrestle freestyle. You have to learn all styles to best utilize your arsonal, Freestyle and Greco if you are a TRUE wrestling fan is where it's at the WORLD level not just college. If a kid really plans on being a great wrestler, he/she has to do well at all three styles. Looks like some coaches needs to do some coaching. And ISWA is not going anywhere you see all the babys being born into the wrestling community, Perry has like 6 babies from 2 and under that I know we will be talking about in 5 to 10 years. Keep up the GREAT work, all that helps with Freestyle and Greco(ISWA) my family owes the sport it has done alot for my son as well as my daughters. THANKS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlickRodz Posted March 29, 2010 Author Share Posted March 29, 2010 JUST WRESTLE!! Coaches need to learn the rules so the kids can understand more. Freestyle state always brings out the best kids Howe, Hump, Spencer all were great to watch wrestle freestyle. You have to learn all styles to best utilize your arsonal, Freestyle and Greco if you are a TRUE wrestling fan is where it's at the WORLD level not just college. If a kid really plans on being a great wrestler, he/she has to do well at all three styles. Looks like some coaches needs to do some coaching. And ISWA is not going anywhere you see all the babys being born into the wrestling community, Perry has like 6 babies from 2 and under that I know we will be talking about in 5 to 10 years. Keep up the GREAT work, all that helps with Freestyle and Greco(ISWA) my family owes the sport it has done alot for my son as well as my daughters. THANKS Caliboy....I could not agree more. But as hardcore as you are don't you think that Indiana is behind in Freestyle? Hey you have been around this sport a while. Has it always been so expensive ($950) to be on the Freestyle Dual team? That seems really high to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PROPOWER Posted March 29, 2010 Share Posted March 29, 2010 Caliboy....I could not agree more. But as hardcore as you are don't you think that Indiana is behind in Freestyle? Hey you have been around this sport a while. Has it always been so expensive ($950) to be on the Freestyle Dual team? That seems really high to me. Rod, I'm not sure whre you came up witht he $950 for the cost of the Freestyle Duals teams? The cost of Cadet duals for this year is $450 one style and $475 both styles. The cost of Junior duals is $575 one style and $600 both styles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlickRodz Posted March 29, 2010 Author Share Posted March 29, 2010 Rod, I'm not sure whre you came up witht he $950 for the cost of the Freestyle Duals teams? The cost of Cadet duals for this year is $450 one style and $475 both styles. The cost of Junior duals is $575 one style and $600 both styles. Many thanks! One of our club members and I were discussing it and I was told $950 for one and $1450 for both. Glad to be WRONG! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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