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SlickRodz

Freestyle Wrestling in Indiana will Die soon!

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I got a question.

What if wrestler A guts wrenches wrestler B and don't bridge so they award 2 to both wrestlers.What if the period ends 2-2 who get the last 2 points?

The person that ran the move or the one who got rolled!

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I got a question.

What if wrestler A guts wrenches wrestler B and don't bridge so they award 2 to both wrestlers.What if the period ends 2-2 who get the last 2 points?

The person that ran the move or the one who got rolled!

 

-If last score is a 2-2 situation causing tie because attacking wrestler rolls across shoulders without action from his opponent, the victory goes to the attacking wrestler.( risk )

 

This is from the simplified version of the rules as posted by Mark Mundy, ISWA Freestyle & Greco Mat Officials Developmental Director on the ISWA Website. It can be found at the following by cutting and pasting it to your browser if this link does not work.

 

http://iswa.com/FILA%20Rule%20Change.pdf

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People Boo me for this thread. I do see a place for Freestyle. But we as a State MUST do a better job then we are doing with respect to Freestyle. Rectangular half mats should not be used for the Cadet or Juniors at any weight. Officials need training (formal) and teams need rules training (we do this at South, but officials don't know the rules).  I do believe that Freestyle is an exciting venue, but I have seen too many times where the Official decides the outcome.

 

I am very curious to know who your club's referee might be? I would be happy to train you (formal).

As previously stated there is annual clinic provided by the ISWA and about 12-15 people bother to attend. I take offense to your comment that officials don't know the rules. I am an official and I know them very well. I would be happy to share them with anyone who had questions (formal or informal).

 

Best Regards,

Tom Clark

 

 

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I am very happy for the higher level officials that take there time to ref at meets on the weekend.  With they little time they do have they are more than happy to help me in understanding any calls or situations that come up during the day.  Unfortunately these refs can't be on every mat so some group is stuck with a HS kid who hopefully is at least training to be a ref.  I would love to see the experiance refs always be on the cadet and junior mats, but I also find myself thankful when they are with the younger groups instead of a young kid when a parent get out of hand.  I also know many experiance refs understand the difficulty in wrestling on half mats (especially starting the short way) at the cadet and junior age group and try to do those matches on full mats or wave the rule if they are stuck on half mats.

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If you have been around wrestling for awhile, and know what you are talking about then don't waste your time arguing with those saying free/greco are a waste, or not worth your time.

 

Anyone who says that is a moron, and has no wrestling knowledge base what-so-ever and you won't convince them.

(I am not talking about those who said it is dying out, the numbers are down a bit)

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-If last score is a 2-2 situation causing tie because attacking wrestler rolls across shoulders without action from his opponent, the victory goes to the attacking wrestler.( risk )

 

This is from the simplified version of the rules as posted by Mark Mundy, ISWA Freestyle & Greco Mat Officials Developmental Director on the ISWA Website. It can be found at the following by cutting and pasting it to your browser if this link does not work.

 

http://iswa.com/FILA%20Rule%20Change.pdf

thanks for the explaination i understand now thanks

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"If you have been around wrestling for awhile, and know what you are talking about then don't waste your time arguing with those saying free/greco are a waste, or not worth your time."

 

That is a great way to approach a discussion.  There are a lot of reasons that free-style could easily be avoided with very little detriment and possibly some benefits in my opinion.  I wrestled a lot of free-style growing up and it sounds like a lot of the same problems exist now that existed 30 years ago. 

 

I haven't been around it much recently, but with a young wrestler it is sometimes hard to find referees at tournaments who know the folkstyle rules.  I am only guessing that the younger volunteer referees are not as familiar with the free-style rules.  Safety would be my main concern with young referees.

 

I am not sure what you couldn't teach a kid to use in folkstyle as a coach that would make such a huge difference just because it is free-style.  The only thing that comes to mind are despiration moves at the end of matches you are losing and need 5 points - those should be taught in folkstyle anyway.  If I am wrong on that enlighten me.  Looking for moves you can't run in folkstyle, but help you in folkstyle.

 

I see a lot of people saying wrestling is wrestling, so why not stick with what you will use for sure in high school and college?  How many wrestlers make it to the olympic level where they need to wrestle free-style to compete against the best in the world? 

 

Wrestling has only been around since the beginning of time.  Why can't an organization come up with rules that remain constant or have only minor changes periodically?  Is it to benefit the administration's wrestlers or to better the sport?

 

Just a few of my issues and why I would pick a folkstyle tournament for a young kid if there was a choice.

 

 

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I am very curious to know who your club's referee might be? I would be happy to train you (formal).

As previously stated there is annual clinic provided by the ISWA and about 12-15 people bother to attend. I take offense to your comment that officials don't know the rules. I am an official and I know them very well. I would be happy to share them with anyone who had questions (formal or informal).

 

Best Regards,

Tom Clark

 

Tom, Our club is not the problem. We have "Formal" training and even our little guys know the rules. Problem is most of the officials at events don't. Take issue if you like but facts are facts! At a typical tourney there are 2-3 "real" officials that know Freestyle rules. This is out of 8-10 officials on site, and that is my problem. Officials calling touch falls,  awarding points for push-out while both wrestlers are on their knees, allowing illegal holds and unsafe wrestling. All happen at EVERY freestyle club event held.

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Tom, Our club is not the problem. We have "Formal" training and even our little guys know the rules. Problem is most of the officials at events don't. Take issue if you like but facts are facts! At a typical tourney there are 2-3 "real" officials that know Freestyle rules. This is out of 8-10 officials on site, and that is my problem. Officials calling touch falls,  awarding points for push-out while both wrestlers are on their knees, allowing illegal holds and unsafe wrestling. All happen at EVERY freestyle club event held.

 

I agree with some of the issues you stated. They often do occur. I will ask you again...who is the ACTIVE referee from your club teaching your kids the rules?

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I agree with some of the issues you stated. They often do occur. I will ask you again...who is the ACTIVE referee from your club teaching your kids the rules?

 

Littlejohn, Gillespie, Veterisi and Fiddler are our Clubs active referees. Fiddler is there for almost every practice. The other are very active and give updates to the coaches on rules changes at the beginning of each season. Royce Deckard is the High School Coach and he is in charge of teaching the rules to the club.  I am not complaining about our clubs knowledge. When our wrestlers know the rules, wrestle by the rules and get physically slapped during a match by an official that wants a legal hold released or makes a call that the wrestler knows is wrong, it gets very frustrating.

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Littlejohn, Gillespie, Veterisi and Fiddler are our Clubs active referees. Fiddler is there for almost every practice. The other are very active and give updates to the coaches on rules changes at the beginning of each season. Royce Deckard is the High School Coach and he is in charge of teaching the rules to the club.  I am not complaining about our clubs knowledge. When our wrestlers know the rules, wrestle by the rules and get physically slapped during a match by an official that wants a legal hold released or makes a call that the wrestler knows is wrong, it gets very frustrating.

 

All the people you mentioned are nice people. Most of them are friends. Not one of them is an active freestyle referee.

 

Forgive me, but I find it VERY hard to believe that Gillespie and Viteseri give you updates an any FS or Greco rule changes. I'm not familiar with Fiddler right off the top of my head....

 

You have some good points....now you or someone from your club needs to step up and help. You can be part of the problem or part of the solution. It's your choice.

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How is being frustrated with bad calls any different in freestyle than it is in folkstyle?  There isn't a difference.  Bad calls occur in both.

 

I appreciated the individuals that refereed our tournament on Saturday.  Everyone that worked was volunteering their time.   They were not paid for working.  In stead of complaining how it was officiated, you should be thanking the individuals that volunteered their time to help run the tournament.  I didn't see any officials working the tournament from BHSS.  And if your club is that knowledgeable on the rules, then we would have loved to have help in officiating the matches.  It is a little tougher than it looks and I applaud the kids that helped referee in between their matches.  I was in their position at one time.   I can understand how difficult it is but where else are you supposed to learn.  Obviously, it is easier to complain about it than to help do it.

 

Sorry for the half mats, unfortunately we don't have the facility to put down 8 full mats.  I do think that it is important to learn how the step-out rule works for wrestlers and officials.  I know that it isn't ideal conditions, but that rule will be enforced at the state tournament, and most local tournaments are not ran on full mats.  We made the decision to implement the rule.  This was just a local tournament not the state finals.

 

Best regards

Zach Errett

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The complaint about bad officiating should not come from anyone who has not been out there on the mat with the whistle.  Everyone has the same opportunities to learn the rules and help with the tournament- its the choices you make to better the sport.  Freestyle and Greco will survive if enough members of the wrestling community step forward and be part of the solution.  Freestyle and Greco to me is a fun alternative to folkstyle where the pressure is not on the athletes like during the season and allows them the opportunities to be a bit inventive with their move selections.  The movement of increased folkstyle in this state will bring the numbers down at the freestyle tournaments until the freestyle can be taught to the majority rather than the minority.  The biggest complaint I have every year at freestyle state is the amount of referees for the "big" clubs- there are very few or none at all.  3 refs at every mat would eliminate these "bad" calls that you complain about.

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If you have been around wrestling for awhile, and know what you are talking about then don't waste your time arguing with those saying free/greco are a waste, or not worth your time.

 

Anyone who says that is a moron, and has no wrestling knowledge base what-so-ever and you won't convince them.

(I am not talking about those who said it is dying out, the numbers are down a bit)

 

I love when opinions are stated as facts -- that's my favorite. Because someone has a differing opinion then the fact is that they have "no wrestling knowledge base what-so-ever" ---- Priceless

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If you have been around wrestling for awhile, and know what you are talking about then don't waste your time arguing with those saying free/greco are a waste, or not worth your time.

 

Anyone who says that is a moron, and has no wrestling knowledge base what-so-ever and you won't convince them.

(I am not talking about those who said it is dying out, the numbers are down a bit)

 

This guy always approaches issues in these beligerant ways.  Everyone is a fool if they don't agree with him.  My point regarding freestyle is that it's a neccessary evil.  Because it's the only game in town, my boys do it once the folkstyle off season tourney's end.  I agree with a couple of the other posters on here that if folkstyle were available and had as well recognized national tourney's like Fargo, etc, I'd have my boys only concentrating on folkstyle.

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How is being frustrated with bad calls any different in freestyle than it is in folkstyle?  There isn't a difference.  Bad calls occur in both.

 

I appreciated the individuals that refereed our tournament on Saturday.  Everyone that worked was volunteering their time.   They were not paid for working.  In stead of complaining how it was officiated, you should be thanking the individuals that volunteered their time to help run the tournament.  I didn't see any officials working the tournament from BHSS.  And if your club is that knowledgeable on the rules, then we would have loved to have help in officiating the matches.  It is a little tougher than it looks and I applaud the kids that helped referee in between their matches.  I was in their position at one time.   I can understand how difficult it is but where else are you supposed to learn.  Obviously, it is easier to complain about it than to help do it.

 

Sorry for the half mats, unfortunately we don't have the facility to put down 8 full mats.  I do think that it is important to learn how the step-out rule works for wrestlers and officials.  I know that it isn't ideal conditions, but that rule will be enforced at the state tournament, and most local tournaments are not ran on full mats.  We made the decision to implement the rule.  This was just a local tournament not the state finals.

 

Best regards

Zach Errett

 

You are missing my points. See my original post. You ran a great tourney! We as a state have to step up and get the word out as far as rules. We did have an official who refed on Saturday by the way, as well as 2 who did table help! And half mats are the norm, but not a good solution. This is a state wide problem!  I give you a lot of credit for a great tourney, I am just calling for us as parents, coaches and officials to make an attempt to fix the problem. If not I do see the numbers continue to drop and in my opinion die.

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I couldn't agree with you more Coach Flatt.

 

Also, the half mats thing is a necessary evil unless you want people staying at these tournaments until 7-8 at night, most places are also real good of switching to full mats when it is possible.

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Sorry, if I didn't see an official from Bloomington on the official sign-in sheet.  I just wrote thank you notes and didn't see one on there.  I just assumed that there wasn't an official from your club.  For that, I'm sorry.  We (club) and I appreciate any help that we get because we know it takes a number of people to run a tournament.

 

Thanks

Zach Errett

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You are missing my points. See my original post. You ran a great tourney! We as a state have to step up and get the word out as far as rules. We did have an official who refed on Saturday by the way, as well as 2 who did table help! And half mats are the norm, but not a good solution. This is a state wide problem!  I give you a lot of credit for a great tourney, I am just calling for us as parents, coaches and officials to make an attempt to fix the problem. If not I do see the numbers continue to drop and in my opinion die.

 

My solution to the 1/2 mat problem is the same as the long waits and crowd problem a the traditionally larger events.  Split up the tournaments into two sessions with the little kids in the morning and the older ones showing up later in the afternoon.  Run the little kid divisions in the morning on 1/2 mats (heck if you have the table help you could almost run the really little ones on 1/4 of a mat).  Then start the older kid division later in the afternoon with the oldest ones (at least Juniors) being on full mats.  Even if the some of the little kids divisions run over their will not be as many still going when the big kid start.  Tournaments will still get the same crowd so money wise they will not be out but they will not all be their at the same time making for easier mobility.  Tournaments will most likely end around the same time as before but without the almost 2 hours of waiting in between matches at the bigger events.  Parents who have kids in both divisions will just bring both early as usual and stay as long as they would if it is not split up so that shouldn't be an issue.  However the rest of the kid can either get out of the tournament as a decent hour and enjoy their day or sleep in a little longer before they have to go to the event.  Sitting in a hot crowded gym that is hard to hear the PA from 8am-5pm or later with just a few matches is hard on parents, coaches, kids, and help alike.  If you could break it up to less time there for participants, a more comfortable setting, less confusion and complaints towards the school running it, and still get the matches in then it a winning situation for everyone.  Parent will be happier to spend less time in a gym that in not as hot and kids will maybe participate more when they know that the event will not take up their entire day for just a few matches.  Because most of the little kids are done we wouldn't have to worry about the big kids wrestling right next to the little ones.  Because it as two different times you could have the older kids from your area or club helping at tables and refing matches without having them run off every so often to wrestle.  Because its two different times the experiance refs can be their to help in the morning with the younger kids refing and then be the main refs in the afternoon for the olders division where most want them to be.  Because it at two different times you could possibly run the whole event out of one large gym instead of having kids, parents, and coaches run between the large and small gyms through a huge crowd of people.  Heck if you run it right you may even be able to give the table help a short break between the two session, possibly have a morning and afternoon shift even, and the tournament organizes will not be so overwhelmed with having to get everything re-arranged at 8 in the morning.  Sure at traditionally smaller events this may not be necessary becuase of the limited amount of participants but I'm really not sure with some of these traditioanlly big tournaments in average size gyms haven't tried this before now.

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Freestyle and Greco definitely has a place for wrestlers and makes a folkstyle wrestler better.  But I will agree it is on it's last leg in Indiana.

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All the bigdogs usually make it out for freestyle state alway's fun to watch and a great atmosphere. The best of luck to all our Indy Olympic freestlye hopefuls we have some of the best freestyle talent right here. There will be 2 or 3 medalist at the olympics that come from Indiana ,ISWA- Freestle and Greco will NEVER DIE!!!

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There will be 2 or 3 medalist at the olympics that come from Indiana

 

Caliboy while I like your enthusiasm their were only 3 medals for the US (Cejudo freestlye gold, Wheeler greco Bronze, Miller womens freestlye Bronze) in the last olympics period.  While I do believe we have some great freestyle/greco talent in state its asking a lot to have them all make the Olympic squad let along win enough matches against the best in the world to all medal.  I'll just be happy in the next few Olympics to see the US increase it overall medal count reguardless of what state they competator comes from.

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All the people you mentioned are nice people. Most of them are friends. Not one of them is an active freestyle referee.

 

Forgive me, but I find it VERY hard to believe that Gillespie and Viteseri give you updates an any FS or Greco rule changes. I'm not familiar with Fiddler right off the top of my head....

 

You have some good points....now you or someone from your club needs to step up and help. You can be part of the problem or part of the solution. It's your choice.

 

Littlejohn and Fiddler ref freestyle every weekend.  Veterisi does but not as much and he is a rules maniac! All are very active with our club.

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Littlejohn and Fiddler ref freestyle every weekend.  Veterisi does but not as much and he is a rules maniac! All are very active with our club.

 

Then why weren't they with your club last week at Mooresville?

 

Note...I'm not attempting to discredit any other voulteer referee....Mr slickrodz is trying to stir the pot and I am calling you out

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