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Freestyle Wrestling in Indiana will Die soon!


SlickRodz

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Kind of a strong subject line, but I believe it true. We wrestled in Moorseville on Saturday, and the Tourney was ran as well as most. So I am saying this is not a reflection of Moorseville tourney, just of Freestyle in general.

 

Reasons I feel it will die in the next 5-7 years.

1) Rule changes that are bad for the sport.

   The Sumo rule (imposed 3-4 years ago) or the push-out rule. This gives a wrestler a point if he can get his opponent to cross out of bounds (while not on his knees). I assume that this was to keep a wrestler from fleeing the mat. But that is not how it has worked out. I have seen many matches (mostly younger, developing wrestlers) spend the better part of three rounds trying to push their opponent out of bounds. Also, most officials do not understand the rule. On Saturday I saw a match where both wrestlers were on their knees in a dual wizzer, near the edge, one put his hand on the line and a point was awarded for the other. OK????

   The dual award of points. This year an Official Emphases is being placed on "the bridge". Take for example the "Gator Roll", if a wrestler rolls a Gator, but does not "sufficiently" bridge, a 2-2 score is awarded. This means that the wrestler that gets rolled and does nothing gets as many points as the offensive wrestler. What? There are others but these two rules come to mind.

 

2) Inexperienced Officials

   I understand the need for using Wrestlers for officials in Club Tourneys. But in Freestyle where there are so many "subjective" calls it is many times the official that determines the outcome. Example from, Saturday.....SchoolBoy Division. Wrestler A has a low-gut on wrestler B. As he rolls the gut, wrestler B's shoulders touch the mat. No stoppage just a touch. A fall is given to wrestler A. In case you don't know there are no touch falls in SchoolBoy division. The coach meets with the official and he admits to calling the touch fall, when the rules is explained he then claims to have counted silently to 3 and enforces the fall. There were many such instances.

 

3) Safety Concerns

   In Freestyle no points are awarded for the use of illegal moves. Time is given for recovery. But the offending wrestler is not penalized. I saw a "Jack-knife" used on Saturday (MMA Submission-arm bar). The match was stopped and time was given for recovery, then the match went on. There is no excuse for not penalizing illegal moves.

 

4) Availability of year round Folk-style

   It is now possible to wrestle Folk-style year round. With the HWAY, AAU and USA Folkstyle tourneys now available regionally, it is not hard to just avoid Freestyle. I have heard of three clubs that do not plan to wrestler Freestyle next year. If ask by my club I will support the same.

 

 

 

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If you're correct, I say good riddance. Folkstyle is what we wrestle in High School and college -- I'm willing to bet that  99% of our athletes will never make it to the Olympic level -- and for those that do -- I'm sure they can pick up the style easily enough. I think more folkstyle tournaments would only help our state's competitiveness on a National level.

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You are correct... and also imprecise.  I could show you a post from this board in 1998 stating nearly everything you did verbatim, with the exception perhaps of the push-out rule.  Yet, here we are with FS/GR still going on in 2010.

 

People said the same things back in the 70s & 80s; still, we have kids lined up around the block to attend FS/GR nationals in Fargo each summer.

 

Man, you are so right about the constant FILA rule changes.  It makes FS/GR harder all the time to wrestle, officiate or even watch.  Try just reading pages 30-49 of USA Wrestling Officials guide (taken from the FILA manual). Gee wiz, every paragraph seems to contradict the one before.  And I have been heavily involved since the 70s.  I can't imagine what its like to a new person.

 

You are correct too about the availability of folkstyle tourneys and the lack of penalties for illegal holds.  

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Here is where I would diverge...

1) Wrestling folk constantly leads to a much higher burnout rate by the time kids get to HS,  then when you combine folks/FS/GR.

 

2) Folkstyle imop is ungodly boring.  Stalling is just killing any excitement in folk, where FS/GR attempts to combat stalling with the rules (push-out, win 2 of 3 periods).  The FS/GR solutions to stalling aren't the best, but at least they try to combat it.

 

3) I actually see many kids smiling at FS/GR tournaments.  The atmosphere is so much more relaxed.  Whereas at folk, I see plenty of depressed kids and a much darker aura.  More people need to realize wrestling is a sport which should be enjoyable.

 

4) As true red-white-and-blue American, it pains me to make this statement, but it's important we aren't the "Ugly American."  Just like football or softball or nascar, there is no interest in folkstyle outside the U.S.  As wrestling community, we should not be ignorant about the entire world's view of wrestling versus our own little corner.  Oh, some people are gonna be awfully mad now...

 

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As fairly new transplants to Indiana I couldn't be more disappointed with the negative comments about freestyle wrestling. (And by default greco)

 

Since coming to this state we have noticed the dramatic difference in freestyle and greco overall participation and what seems a lacking of understanding about freeestyle and greco wrestling in general.

 

The lack of participation shows itself most in the low placing of Indiana wrestling in freestyle and greco at a national level compared to how well Indiana does in folkstyle nationals.

 

 

I would agree that more ref training needs to be done but so does coaching and parent an wrestler awareness of the sport.

 

 

It's my belief that not having these extra and varied wrestling skills learned in freestyle and greco is one of the reasons why Indiana high school folkstyle wrestling will not be able to break into the top 10 nationally.

 

While some freestyle & greco moves are not allowed in folkstlye most are allowed.

 

While a freestyle/greco  scoring move may not score points in folkstyle those freestyle/greco moves may still put the wrestler in a position to score when combined with a following traditional folkstyle move.

 

Why would anyone want to have their wrestlers have less wrestling tools in their wrestling "toolbox" I can't understand.

 

 

My 3 sons have always wrestled all 3 styles and I strongly urge all wrestlers to participate in all 3 styles of wrestling.

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Here is where I would diverge...

1) Wrestling folk constantly leads to a much higher burnout rate by the time kids get to HS,  then when you combine folks/FS/GR.

 

2) Folkstyle imop is ungodly boring.  Stalling is just killing any excitement in folk, where FS/GR attempts to combat stalling with the rules (push-out, win 2 of 3 periods).  The FS/GR solutions to stalling aren't the best, but at least they try to combat it.

 

3) I actually see many kids smiling at FS/GR tournaments.  The atmosphere is so much more relaxed.  Whereas at folk, I see plenty of depressed kids and a much darker aura.  More people need to realize wrestling is a sport which should be enjoyable.

 

4) As true red-white-and-blue American, it pains me to make this statement, but it's important we aren't the "Ugly American."  Just like football or softball or nascar, there is no interest in folkstyle outside the U.S.  As wrestling community, we should not be ignorant about the entire world's view of wrestling versus our own little corner.  Oh, some people are gonna be awfully mad now...

 

 

Excellent points!

 

Stalling is one of the reasons my sons would much rather wrestle freestyle and greco instead of folkstyle and believe it is much more fun and exciting to watch and participate in freestyle and greco.

 

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3) I actually see many kids smiling at FS/GR tournaments.  The atmosphere is so much more relaxed.  Whereas at folk, I see plenty of depressed kids and a much darker aura.  More people need to realize wrestling is a sport which should be enjoyable.

 

That's becasue kids don't know what they're doing or that they even lost.  Seriously though, I suppose learning a different style can't be bad but if my kids could wrestle folkstyle all offseason, that's what I'd have them do.  My oldest never came anywhere near an injury in folk, and he had a horrible break of his collarbone in free once we started doing it even semi seriously.  As for Greco, that style lends almost nothing to folk.  Basically we do it becasue it's the only game in town.

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As for Greco, that style lends almost nothing to folk.  Basically we do it becasue it's the only game in town.

 

Wow... couldn't disagree more strongly.

 

I can tell you for certain that a great number of greco techniques/moves are usable in folkstyle.

 

I would even go as far to say IMO if you have wrestlers in the upper weights you would be doing them a huge disservice by not requiring them to wrestle greco.

 

As far as folkstyle being the only game in town.. that is not true either and some very dedicated people are working very hard to promote and increase participation in freestyle and greco in this state to help improve the overall wrestling skills of Indiana wrestlers.

 

 

 

 

 

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Wow... couldn't disagree more strongly.

 

I can tell you for certain that a great number of greco techniques/moves are usable in folkstyle.

 

I would even go as far to say IMO if you have wrestlers in the upper weights you would be doing them a huge disservice by not requiring them to wrestle greco.

 

As far as folkstyle being the only game in town.. that is not true either and some very dedicated people are working very hard to promote and increase participation in freestyle and greco in this state to help improve the overall wrestling skills of Indiana wrestlers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I agree with ccbig, wrestling is wrestling. There are 7 basic skills and they are applied to all styles.

 

All the rule changes are frustrating for coaches and probably more so for parents who don't have a wrestling background. That is why I think it's losing popularity. More parents have probably been exposed to folkstyle wrestling in some way growing up and are more likely to keep their kids in it because it's a little easier to follow. Also, many would much rather support a school team at a week night dual than sit in a hot gym all day to see kids wrestle for their club and not be able to follow team scores.

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As fairly new transplants to Indiana I couldn't be more disappointed with the negative comments about freestyle wrestling. (And by default greco)

 

Since coming to this state we have noticed the dramatic difference in freestyle and greco overall participation and what seems a lacking of understanding about freeestyle and greco wrestling in general.

 

The lack of participation shows itself most in the low placing of Indiana wrestling in freestyle and greco at a national level compared to how well Indiana does in folkstyle nationals.

 

 

I would agree that more ref training needs to be done but so does coaching and parent an wrestler awareness of the sport.

 

 

It's my belief that not having these extra and varied wrestling skills learned in freestyle and greco is one of the reasons why Indiana high school folkstyle wrestling will not be able to break into the top 10 nationally.

 

While some freestyle & greco moves are not allowed in folkstlye most are allowed.

 

While a freestyle/greco  scoring move may not score points in folkstyle those freestyle/greco moves may still put the wrestler in a position to score when combined with a following traditional folkstyle move.

 

Why would anyone want to have their wrestlers have less wrestling tools in their wrestling "toolbox" I can't understand.

 

 

My 3 sons have always wrestled all 3 styles and I strongly urge all wrestlers to participate in all 3 styles of wrestling.

 

 

 

Have you ever watched two GOOD Junior 189 pounders wrestle freestyle on a half mat? It is not wrestling!

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Why would anyone want to have their wrestlers have less wrestling tools in their wrestling "toolbox" I can't understand.

 

 

You do not have to wrestle Freestyle to learn the moves used in Freestyle. I am not against Freestyle in general. But the way it is done here makes it horrible. I believe the better wrestler should win most of the time (there is always the head-throw). In Freestyle...it is a tossup! Depends on the official too much.

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[quote author=ccbig link=topic=10867.msg85625#msg85625 date=12693659

As far as folkstyle being the only game in town.. that is not true either and some very dedicated people are working very hard to promote and increase participation in freestyle and greco in this state to help improve the overall wrestling skills of Indiana wrestlers.

 

I meant that freestyle was the only game in town after the folkstyle season ends in the offseason, that's why my kids do it.

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Last Saturday at the Ncaa's we got to spend a half hour or so listening to Dan Gable talk about wrestling in genral. One thing he said is we need to work together as wrestling groups to make USA wrestling better. If you watched the NCAA's didn't they wrestle at least 80% of the time on there feet? And how many times did you see any of those guys riding legs? Im a true believer that you really need to learn how to wrestle it all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I believe each style has alot to teach wrestlers of all ages. When my son started wrestling we were at a small school that had a folkstyle club, after folkstyle state our son wanted to keep going so I asked around our room. I had a ton of people tell me, "dont do freestyle it just teaches bad habits" so we stayed away, then the next year we found a new club and a new attitude. My son started wrestling at age 4 did freestyle at age 6 started greco at 8, its a fun time of year for him, its like a new sport almost and he uses techniques from all 3 in his folkstlye matches. I think for those kids who spend the entire year in the wrestling room it gives the wrestlers a much needed change of pace. The most important thing is to keep them wrestling and for us freestyle and greco gives a change of pace and teaches some different techniques that he uses all year..........Just my two cents 

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Have you ever watched two GOOD Junior 189 pounders wrestle freestyle on a half mat? It is not wrestling!

 

I have watched two good 215's wrestle in a packed wrestling room (2 mats, 60+ kids) and wrestle just fine. The off-season isn't about winning and losing its about improving...

 

a few more points I disagree  about...

 

If you feel the push out rule is a bad rule teach your wrestler to keep the action in the middle, there is no rule saying your kid can't work the center of the mat it in fact it would probably be applauded.

 

90% of the time the better wrestler does win even if he does have an "unexperienced official" as long as you work your take downs you can win 90% of the time if you are a better wrestler.

 

Kids don't smile at freestyle tournaments because they don't know what they are doing....the little one smile because ITS FUN, the older kids smile because there is no pressure its off-season the goal is to improve and get ready for next year not bust your butt to be an just to be an off-season state champ (although winning is nice  ;D  and comes from the work).

 

 

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I have watched two good 215's wrestle in a packed wrestling room (2 mats, 60+ kids) and wrestle just fine. The off-season isn't about winning and losing its about improving...

 

a few more points I disagree  about...

 

If you feel the push out rule is a bad rule teach your wrestler to keep the action in the middle, there is no rule saying your kid can't work the center of the mat it in fact it would probably be applauded.

 

90% of the time the better wrestler does win even if he does have an "unexperienced official" as long as you work your take downs you can win 90% of the time if you are a better wrestler.

 

Kids don't smile at freestyle tournaments because they don't know what they are doing....the little one smile because ITS FUN, the older kids smile because there is no pressure its off-season the goal is to improve and get ready for next year not bust your butt to be an just to be an off-season state champ (although winning is nice  ;D  and comes from the work).

 

 

 

FABIO

Just about everything you said i agree with. (I'm not surprised) Only thing i think you have wrong is the push out rule. I just don't honestly think you can support that one.

 

In Folkstyle:

How many times in a match have you been obviously pressuring the offense against a kid that is stalling balls against you, and as you back him up to the out of bounds line he does a quick circle and pushes/shoots you out (without any intent to score) to keep from being called for stalling?

 

-Maybe i'm not very good, or strong (both very possible) but that happened to me often in HS.

 

-I feel like this same strategy is used very often in Freestyle nowadays. Only in Freestyle the passive wrestler isn't escaping a stall call, he is being awarded a point. And Myself, being a big supporter of winning by any means necessary within the laws of the rule book, I can't blame these wrestlers. It seems to me to be the best option to win a Freestyle match. You don't have to work to score a takedown, so you can just stay in position and keep your focus on defending your opponent's offensive and then when the opportunity arises push/shoot the guy out of bounds and win the match by a point.

 

-Personally I like to see wrestlers going as hard as they can against each other and really opening up their own offense. Its just more exciting to me that way, and the push out rule seems to me to promote that certain style that leads to extremely boring matches won on one point pushouts amongst the higher level wrestlers. (no specific level mentioned here, just higher) 

 

Hoping to sway your opinion,

Johnny Dillon

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The coaches need to do a better job coaching and learning the rule when it comes to freestyle and greco, we love it. Indiana has produced some of the best freestyle wrestlers as of right now. If the coaches don't let it die it will not Our club does a very good job coaching all around wrestling and having the best guy's in the room to always show new stuff. Coaches come to a Perry RTC and see Mango and some of the guy's and you will change your toughts on freestyle and greco. I really like the excitement and non stop wrestling of freestyle. Just my opinion. The studs did not come out for Folkstyle state either so maybe all styles are taking a hit.

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I wonder what the percentage of guys, in the highest levels of high school and collegiate wrestling, have a substantial background in the international styles?  Coincidence?

 

What coincidence?  You didn't throw any numbers in so how would we know if a coincidence existed or not. 

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FABIO

Just about everything you said i agree with. (I'm not surprised) Only thing i think you have wrong is the push out rule. I just don't honestly think you can support that one.

 

In Folkstyle:

How many times in a match have you been obviously pressuring the offense against a kid that is stalling balls against you, and as you back him up to the out of bounds line he does a quick circle and pushes/shoots you out (without any intent to score) to keep from being called for stalling?

 

-Maybe i'm not very good, or strong (both very possible) but that happened to me often in HS.

 

-I feel like this same strategy is used very often in Freestyle nowadays. Only in Freestyle the passive wrestler isn't escaping a stall call, he is being awarded a point. And Myself, being a big supporter of winning by any means necessary within the laws of the rule book, I can't blame these wrestlers. It seems to me to be the best option to win a Freestyle match. You don't have to work to score a takedown, so you can just stay in position and keep your focus on defending your opponent's offensive and then when the opportunity arises push/shoot the guy out of bounds and win the match by a point.

 

-Personally I like to see wrestlers going as hard as they can against each other and really opening up their own offense. Its just more exciting to me that way, and the push out rule seems to me to promote that certain style that leads to extremely boring matches won on one point pushouts amongst the higher level wrestlers. (no specific level mentioned here, just higher) 

 

Hoping to sway your opinion,

Johnny Dillon

 

I'm not saying you have to push the guy to pressure...maybe I could get away with this but I remember when I wrestled Mater Dei (known for wrestling the line, its a strategy not stalling so don't bash me for this) for Example if I felt I was in a bad situation I would get out and back back up to the center. forcing the other wrestler to follow or risk being dinged... same goes for FS you dont attempt to return to the center you get dinged for Pacivity. Again maybe not everyone can do this but it was never a problem for me and I never thought of myself as one of the stronger ones.

 

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People Boo me for this thread. I do see a place for Freestyle. But we as a State MUST do a better job then we are doing with respect to Freestyle. Rectangular half mats should not be used for the Cadet or Juniors at any weight. Officials need training (formal) and teams need rules training (we do this at South, but officials don't know the rules).  I do believe that Freestyle is an exciting venue, but I have seen too many times where the Official decides the outcome.

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If you're correct, I say good riddance. Folkstyle is what we wrestle in High School and college -- I'm willing to bet that  99% of our athletes will never make it to the Olympic level -- and for those that do -- I'm sure they can pick up the style easily enough. I think more folkstyle tournaments would only help our state's competitiveness on a National level.

 

Olympic level? A  high percentage of the most prestigeous tournaments to compete in at the highschool and college levels are something other than folkstyle (Fargo, Fila, university nationals, etc.)...

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There's a ref rules clinic for Freestyle and Greco at Folkstyle state every year. Last year I think there were maybe 12 of us and this year even less with 4 of those being from Kentucky. It's ran by Mark Mundy and it covers all the basics plus rules changes. It has really helped me out as an official. Supposedly every club that is hosting a tournament must send a represenative.

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