ENoblewrestling Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 http://www.indystar.com/article/20100302/SPORTS15/3020329/1160/SPORTS0203/At-100-high-school-basketball-tourney-is-ailing Good article about the what class basketball's effect on basketball. Don't let it happen to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted March 3, 2010 Author Share Posted March 3, 2010 Also I know its an opinion piece so dont jump down my throat about that, just an interesting article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 From the comments section, I draw two conclusions: 1. Those that bemoan the loss of single class basketball constantly talk of the 1950s and 60s. 2. The vast majority of small or smaller schools are happy with the current system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midwest Wrestling Fanpage Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 1 CLASS 1 CHAMP enough said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 1 CLASS 1 CHAMP enough said Yup, just like they do it in college...er....wups..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 If class basketball was so bad, why hasn't the IHSAA changed back? Why haven't they been pressured by the coaches or principals or athletic directors to change back? Why haven't the baseball, softball, volleyball and other now class sport coaches pushed for a single class system again? Me thinks that since the big dawgs aren't beating up on the little guys and filling their trophy cases up they are the only ones complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 It was a decent article, but I think calling it an article about the negative effects of classing sports is a little off. More like an overall look at why HS basketball popularity is wavering. I think another important point about why all high school sports lack attendance/importance to their community is the fact that people have a lot more things to do with their free time than even say 20 years ago. The technological explosion has made people much more self-sufficient when it comes to entertainment. You can stay in your own home and keep yourself occupied for days on end with activities, TV shows, and games that are exactly what you want them to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galagore Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 If class basketball was so bad, why hasn't the IHSAA changed back? Why haven't they been pressured by the coaches or principals or athletic directors to change back? Why haven't the baseball, softball, volleyball and other now class sport coaches pushed for a single class system again? Me thinks that since the big dawgs aren't beating up on the little guys and filling their trophy cases up they are the only ones complaining. Nah, I honestly think it breaks people's hearts that gyms aren't packed anymore. The fans that are at games aren't as excited as they used to be. When that kind of thing happens, people need reasons for it so they can at least make peace with it. Enter bashing class basketball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TripleB Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 If class basketball was so bad, why hasn't the IHSAA changed back? Why haven't they been pressured by the coaches or principals or athletic directors to change back? Why haven't the baseball, softball, volleyball and other now class sport coaches pushed for a single class system again? Me thinks that since the big dawgs aren't beating up on the little guys and filling their trophy cases up they are the only ones complaining. The same reason the IHSAA hasn't given in to the pressure from our Coaches Association to add wrestle-backs. They don't care what the coaches think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarlHungus Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 The same reason the IHSAA hasn't given in to the pressure from our Coaches Association to add wrestle-backs. They don't care what the coaches think. Pressure from a coach's association that barely has 50 percent of the schools represented isn't going to get much done. If revenue is down so much with multi-class basketball like everyone says, you think that would spur the IHSAA into declassifying basketball. Haven't heard a peep about it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duck_and_run Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 I thought it was a descent artical as well. Y2 often time pride gets in the way of changing the systems back. After all the IHSAA fought like hell to get it that way wouldn't they look stupid if they said it wasn't working? When states class things they take that to the grave with them no matter what the effects are. Does indiana have any classed individual sports? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach McCormick Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 My thoughts and feelings on this article will mirror some of the other people's posts on this topic, but I will go ahead and share my opinions anyway. 1. Class basketball didn't ruin Indiana basketball. Times have changed. As KarlHungus already stated (and I agree), many people hold onto the ideal of the days of Milan and the movie "Hoosiers." Although an exciting time in Indiana athletic history, those days and community dynamics are gone. As Galagore put it nicely, there are many more "things" for kids and families to take part in these days rather than high school sports. Coaches call these "things" distractions, but never the less, it is becoming ever more difficult to entice a group of kids to come out for any sport and work hard towards an end goal for a long period of time (years). 2. The newspaper article that started this discussion didn't do itself any favors when it interviewed coaches from Lawrence North (large school), Pike (large school) and referenced Warren Central (large school). Why didn't they interview some small school coaches? Y2 is correct in that large schools were accustom to beating up on the small guys along the basketball tournament trail for decades and decades. Now, they are putting each other out in the first round of the sectionals, and they don't like it very much. I would simply advise the author of this article to be more diverse in selecting coaches from a broader spectrum of schools of various sizes before establishing viewpoints based solely from the large school's vantage point. 3. I know there have been numerous threads and comments regarding class wrestling in Indiana. One needs to look no further than football, basketball, baseball, etc. to see that classed sports are the fair and reasonable way to go for high school age athletes. Until you have been a coach at a mid to small size school, you have absolutely no idea what those programs go through in their efforts to stay competitive throughout the state. It goes further than just having a kid (or kids) that weighs a certain amount. It encompasses many more issues and resources such as number of coaches, sustaining good equipment, gymnasium/facility time, sickness/injury on the team, community socio-economics and many other factors. If one class is the way to go, then it should be one class for all sports. We should then expect the little 1A school to compete year in and year out in football with the big boys like Warren Central, Ben Davis and Center Grove. After all, all football fields are the same size; there are only 11 players on the field for each team; and so on and so on. I am obviously playing the devil's advocate here, but almost everyone would agree that there should be classes for high school football for obvious, glaring reasons, yet for these very same reasons, there should be a classed system for wrestling's team tournament series. It is obvious that our mid to small size public schools across our state are unable to compete with the larger schools in wrestling on a sustained basis. This data is not hard to find. Over the past 10 years, what is the size of the schools who have won the Traicoff, the Al Smith, Connersville and our team state tournament? Not a very convincing article for single class sports in my opinion. More like tainted, skewed authorship from someone stuck in the 60's, 70's and 80's. After this author coaches basketball (or wrestling) at a small to mid size school for a few seasons, then he will have earned the right to write about this topic. Coach McCormick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duck_and_run Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Yeah you forget that all individual sports in Indiana are not classed. You took a team and got second at state. From what I heard you have a good freshmen class and some good recruits coming in. You have absolutly no reason to complain. When you have 6 staters why do you say you can't compete? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted March 3, 2010 Author Share Posted March 3, 2010 I posted this article half- kidding around. I agree with a lot about what you guys have said. One thing in the article that I did agree with was the fact that it called one class basketball in Indiana an institution; that in the authors opinion should not have been tainted. I also agree whole heartedly with what Trent said about the team portion being classed. It is not fair for big schools to compete against little schools, on a team basis. But in terms of our individual tournament would you not agree that it is a speacial "institution" unique in many ways to Indiana, and something that we need to protect, and think very seriously about before changing drastically? I know this could be seen as an old fashoned, backwards attitude, but I coach at a small school, and while I know that all of my guys won't make it to state under the current system I am alright with that, because I know that when someone does make it they have accomplished something in a superior system, one that is Indiana's own. I really think there is something to be said for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 So we should keep our "speacial institution" as you put it, even if it is at the sacrifice of the sport as a whole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdanteague Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 I know this could be seen as an old fashoned, backwards attitude, but I coach at a small school, and while I know that all of my guys won't make it to state under the current system I am alright with that, because I know that when someone does make it they have accomplished something in a superior system, one that is Indiana's own. I really think there is something to be said for that. All your kids wont make it to state in a classed system either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 All you have to do is look at the author to know what to expect. He is probably one of the most uninformed sportswriters in the country. The guy has no clue. If it doesn't have to do with the Colts or his beloved Hoosiers, it's probably worthless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ENoblewrestling Posted March 3, 2010 Author Share Posted March 3, 2010 I have said this numerous times, I do not think that it is bad for the sport. You class guys obviously do, I dont. I have seen arguments from both sides that are fact based and well thought out. I honestly feel that the non-classed side arguments are just as good, if not better in more ways than the classed sides. Again I think they both have valid points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Hartman Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 When I was in college I saw a kid from Michigan at 187 that received a full ride scholarship to wrestle. I saw a kid from Indiana at 118 that was a state qualifier who received book fees. The 118 from Indiana destroyed the Michigan kid every day in practice. I asked why the Michigan kid had a full ride scholarship? They said he was a "2 time" state champ from the small class, so he got a full ride scholarship. Because the little college that I went too couldn't spend their money on scouting they could only go on how kids did in their respected state series. I love our state finals- but are we hurting our kids and their opportunities? There chances for scholarships from small schools? We have tons of kids that place 2-8 or qualify for state that could or should be wrestling somewhere! Are they being cheated out of an opportunity by a 3 time state champ from "smallville wherever" that wouldn't even qualify for our state finals? Just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theckman Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 A 118 was beating up on a 187? Man, the bigger kid must've been embarrassed to come to practice everyday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pin2win1 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Good question coach hartman.... but then one must ask, would the indiana 118 pound kid be good enough to beat up on a 187 pound kid with a full scholarship if we had classed wrestling? Maybe the fact that he has to work hard to be one of the best 16 in state to make state rather than one of the best 32 to make state made him a better wrestler. I have no idea what the answer is to your question of my question, but I think both are rather legitimate questions that need to be pondered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greco165 Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 Yeah you forget that all individual sports in Indiana are not classed. You took a team and got second at state. From what I heard you have a good freshmen class and some good recruits coming in. You have absolutly no reason to complain. When you have 6 staters why do you say you can't compete? * 8 staters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingo Brigade Posted March 3, 2010 Share Posted March 3, 2010 All you have to do is look at the author to know what to expect. He is probably one of the most uninformed sportswriters in the country. The guy has no clue. If it doesn't have to do with the Colts or his beloved Hoosiers, it's probably worthless. Kravitz' job is to get people up in arms and he did it in Denver and he does it here. Not saying it's good or bad, but his job is just to be a poo-stirrer. For what it's worth, Dan Dakich was contradicting some of the claims listed by Kravitz and Dakich is highly tuned into the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IUBjj171 Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 Even if you are recruited by a D3 school you cant get a scholarship. For the scholarships in D1 you have to wrestle on a national level not just have that State Championship. Think about it. You probably have about 150+ State Champions per Weight Class each year. Now in college you have an age range of about 5 years (with redshirts). You are taking about 750 state champions in each weight class. Colleges want the best so instead of going after all of them they look at national competitions instead of doing all of that traveling. Plus they only have so many partial scholarships to give out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMAWRESTLER Posted March 4, 2010 Share Posted March 4, 2010 If class basketball was so bad, why hasn't the IHSAA changed back? Why haven't they been pressured by the coaches or principals or athletic directors to change back? Why haven't the baseball, softball, volleyball and other now class sport coaches pushed for a single class system again? Me thinks that since the big dawgs aren't beating up on the little guys and filling their trophy cases up they are the only ones complaining. Because its all about the mighty $ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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