IMAWRESTLER Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 If anyone was at the Ft. Wayne Semi State the young man from Kokomo at 112 completely dislocated his shoulder everyone saw it sticking out. He layed on the mat in pain they pressed it back in, and went on to finish the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
army197 Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 As far as I am concerned, I could see a reason to boo McMurray, Willis, AND Vlahos when they were on the podium. Obviously booing a teenager is a stupid idea, but I think there were many reasons people were booing. I would also like to state that some of the sportsmanship in the state championship matches was terrible. There is no reason to raise three fingers during a match and there is no reason to refuse to shake hands after a championship match. hahahaha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainer Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 If anyone was at the Ft. Wayne Semi State the young man from Kokomo at 112 completely dislocated his shoulder everyone saw it sticking out. He layed on the mat in pain they pressed it back in, and went on to finish the match. From an athletic training standpoint, the kid probably dislocated it before or didn't have any of the problems as mentioned in the previous posts. If he's "stable" and has good strength with a history of dislocating, it would be much different than doing it for the first time with persisting symptoms, which is presumably what Willis was experiencing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainer Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 I rarely comment on issues such as this one. However, I feel that I must since the integrity of a young man and a coaching staff are in question. My name is Tom Clark and I am a licensed IHSAA referee and one of two State Rules Interpreters. This year I was not eligible to officiate the State Finals due to our rotation system so I was asked to by Jim Russell to assist him in his duties as Supervisor of Officials. I guess my main point behind this is to explain why I was on the floor and what role I was in while there. I have an advantage in this situation that most, if not all, of you do not have. I was there. I heard the conversation between Tyler WIllis, his coaches and the medical personel. Please understand that what I am about to say is not rumor, heresay, innuendo or second or third hand....it is fact...I was there. Tyler Willis and his coaching staff CLEARLY wanted to continue the match. The medical personel said NO. The medical personal cannot be overruled. Period! The technique that was described to me by the match referees is illegal by application. To clearly define this....an athlete does not have to complete the technique for it to be illegal....it's illegal when the athlete takes that particular hold. As I mentioned earlier, I've seen Vlahos throw this several times and he's never taken a penalty for it (that I'm aware). I'm not sure how he's expected to know it's illegal if it hasn't been penalized previously. In fact, he threw it when he was a sophomore at state I believe. They stopped it, but didn't penalize him. The call must be easy to miss... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hogleg Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 From what I have heard the majority of the stadium was booing. I guess the majority of the people there are all idiots also. I guess the majority of fans thought he was not injured. They all must be retarded. Looks like you finally got something right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frigginhurts Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 ok...i have to weigh in on this ---- i feel bad if vlahos didn't know the hold was illegal and especially if his coaches didn't know either although i do find that VERY hard to believe. I don't know either of these kids but after reading what Mr. Clark said, how can you in ANY way blame Willis? Now, the booing, especially the REPEATED booing needs to stop. Our sport already has a bad name and the sportsmanship by the fans does not help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatever-it-takes Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 yeah, vlahos took 4th and lost to mcray, but its not b/c mcray is better. i have nothing against mcray, i wish him the best, but vlahos has beaten him a few times before using headlocks In the 1st 30 seconds of the semis vlahos already had willis on his back. ill leave it at that... and him losing for 3rd had nothing to do with skill, vlahos' goal was to win state, ever since he was a kid and 1 bad call ruined his dream. It broke his heart and i feel for him, so when he goes into the match for 3rd, whats the difference between 3rd and 4th after your dreams are already gone and youre already going to purdue next year? Seeing vlahos after the semis was terrible, ive never seen a kid so upset. I feel like he didnt get a fair chance. like Mr. Clark said, he's hit it many times and its never been called for, so this tells vlahos its okay to use it, not everyone knows every single illegal move, he didnt use it in the intent to hurt willis, if u think he did u obviously know nothing about this kid. I blame it all on the refs, if they havent called it in the past and they have let it slide many times, then its their fault for letting him get away with it before. Vlahos hit the keylock a week before in this match with mcmurray and was not called for anything. I know the refs have alot of pressure on them but they need to know what moves are illegal so this doesnt happen. Many coaches and wrestlers were talking about how vlahos got screwed, they cant all be wrong... and i agree he had poor sportsmanship, and theres no excuse for it, but if you were in this position you would know how hard it is and would have been greatly upset and not have known what to do. Hes got his entire college career ahead of him and i cant wait to see him and how he progresses. You did great cameron and im sorry it ended like it did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 yeah, vlahos took 4th and lost to mcray, but its not b/c mcray is better. i have nothing against mcray, i wish him the best, but vlahos has beaten him a few times before using headlocks and him losing for 3rd had nothing to do with skill, vlahos' goal was to win state, ever since he was a kid and 1 bad call ruined his dream. I guess my memory is pretty bad then as I only remember Vlahos hitting one headlock on Zac in the four times I have seen them wrestle. Zac had his dream ruined the same time and came back and won a match and wrestled very well. To come back and win that match is much more than skill, it takes heart. Zac has the third place medal, no matter what you want to say and you will never be able to take it from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngone Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 My question is if the ref hadn't scored the LATE penalty point would willis have continued. I am willing to bet he would have returned no matter the medical decision. The problem was that it was a shoulder injury and willis didnt come to his feet til the injury time went off. There was nothing wrong with his legs and you always fill worse if you lay down and think about it. If willis gets up and tries to shake it off or attempts too then would have gotten an applause. The move was not illegal and I pin the guilt on the official for giving a pitty point. The pity point is what put willis under the bus. If the penalty wasn't scored willis would have been applauded if he had to discontinue. This official (I have no doubt is an experienced and quality official) owes both kids an apology. He was on top the move when it started and he didn't stop it till willis was on his back in agony. STOP THE PITY POINTS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grecoref Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Seeing vlahos after the semis was terrible, ive never seen a kid so upset. I feel like he didnt get a fair chance. like Mr. Clark said, he's hit it many times and its never been called for, so this tells vlahos its okay to use it, Read my original post again....I did not say anything close to that...."Trainer" copied my post (his is in blue highlights) and those are his/her remarks not mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theckman Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 My question is if the ref hadn't scored the LATE penalty point would willis have continued. I am willing to bet he would have returned no matter the medical decision. The problem was that it was a shoulder injury and willis didnt come to his feet til the injury time went off. There was nothing wrong with his legs and you always fill worse if you lay down and think about it. If willis gets up and tries to shake it off or attempts too then would have gotten an applause. The move was not illegal and i pin the guilt on the official for giving a pitty point. The pitty point is what put willis under the bus. If the penalty wasn't scored willis would have been applauded if he had to discontinue. This official (I have no doubt is an experienced and quality official) owes both kids an apology. He was on top the move when it started and he didn't stop it till willis was on his back in agony. STOP THE PITTY POINTS I'm betting THIS will elicit more than one reply...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frigginhurts Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 yeah, vlahos took 4th and lost to mcray, but its not b/c mcray is better. i have nothing against mcray, i wish him the best, but vlahos has beaten him a few times before using headlocks In the 1st 30 seconds of the semis vlahos already had willis on his back. ill leave it at that... and him losing for 3rd had nothing to do with skill, vlahos' goal was to win state, ever since he was a kid and 1 bad call ruined his dream. It broke his heart and i feel for him, so when he goes into the match for 3rd, whats the difference between 3rd and 4th after your dreams are already gone and youre already going to purdue next year? Seeing vlahos after the semis was terrible, ive never seen a kid so upset. I feel like he didnt get a fair chance. like Mr. Clark said, he's hit it many times and its never been called for, so this tells vlahos its okay to use it, not everyone knows every single illegal move, he didnt use it in the intent to hurt willis, if u think he did u obviously know nothing about this kid. I blame it all on the refs, if they havent called it in the past and they have let it slide many times, then its their fault for letting him get away with it before. Vlahos hit the keylock a week before in this match with mcmurray and was not called for anything. I know the refs have alot of pressure on them but they need to know what moves are illegal so this doesnt happen. Many coaches and wrestlers were talking about how vlahos got screwed, they cant all be wrong... and i agree he had poor sportsmanship, and theres no excuse for it, but if you were in this position you would know how hard it is and would have been greatly upset and not have known what to do. Hes got his entire college career ahead of him and i cant wait to see him and how he progresses. You did great cameron and im sorry it ended like it did. You are correct, if the refs haven't been calling it illegal they have been blowing it but the bottom line is that it is illegal and not only should the refs know it but the coaches and wrestlers have an obligation to know that it is illegal too? surely everyone would agree with that, right? also, how did vlahos get screwed? i guess i missed that part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decbell1 Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 My question is if the ref hadn't scored the LATE penalty point would willis have continued. I am willing to bet he would have returned no matter the medical decision. The problem was that it was a shoulder injury and willis didnt come to his feet til the injury time went off. There was nothing wrong with his legs and you always fill worse if you lay down and think about it. If willis gets up and tries to shake it off or attempts too then would have gotten an applause. The move was not illegal and i pin the guilt on the official for giving a pitty point. The pitty point is what put willis under the bus. If the penalty wasn't scored willis would have been applauded if he had to discontinue. This official (I have no doubt is an experienced and quality official) owes both kids an apology. He was on top the move when it started and he didn't stop it till willis was on his back in agony. STOP THE PITTY POINTS You can't even spell pity........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the situation Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 the real question is what did vlahos say on the podium?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Chris Fleeger, who I presume taught him this move, was disqualified from a match with Andrae Hernandez one time for this same exact move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frigginhurts Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Chris Fleeger, who I presume taught him this move, was disqualified from a match with Andrae Hernandez one time for this same exact move. if this is the case then the coach that taught him the move should really be questioned. if there is any blame to place then i would put it on the person that knowingly taught him an illegal move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swiftyfeet Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 dang so obviously the move is dangerous and has a high chance of injury and vlahos still threw it and threw it HARD!!! did not know that he had previous instances where he had been penalized for throwing the move. thats pretty cheap of him and makes him look even worse in my eyes. but like i said earlier willis was groining and making noises and vlahos continued to crank the throw and did not look like he was going to stop til the refs stopped it. luckily they got there where they did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busstogate Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 I talked with a few refs over this move, both folk and international. My impression is that as long as the arm is tucked into the body, and that the grasping/threading hand goes into an over grip on his other arm and not a bone-on-bone undergrip, it was ok. Still, once the thrower is in motion, the countering wrestling has two choices: go with it, or lose the shoulder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
observer Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 My question is was it the trainers or his coaches that told him not to continue? I watched the same trainers at the mat where a wrestler fainted and fell to the mat and he continued the match because he wanted to. I would think that if a person fainted and fell to the mat he would not be allowed to continue, because obviously there is something wrong that caused him to just drop to the mat. Also, if the move was illegal why was it not stopped. Vlahos was allowed to do the move while the ref watched and it was not stopped until Willis screamed. So if it was illegal the ref should have blown the whistle well before the injury. That is what the ref is there for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainer Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 dang so obviously the move is dangerous and has a high chance of injury and vlahos still threw it and threw it HARD!!! did not know that he had previous instances where he had been penalized for throwing the move. thats pretty cheap of him and makes him look even worse in my eyes. but like i said earlier willis was groining and making noises and vlahos continued to crank the throw and did not look like he was going to stop til the refs stopped it. luckily they got there where they did I'm pretty sure he's never been penalized for this move before--I've seen him throw it and it was stopped for being potentially dangerous is all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Did Vlahos really say something to Willis on the award stand? If he did that is Classless I was close enough to the Mat(press Row) To hear Willis say after the match I'm sorry I don't want to win like this then Vlahos went a little nuts. But I can understand that. I was also in the Press room when they said Willis wanted to wrestle on but had a tingle in his arm and the doctor said it was a no go. that is a Fact not a maybe he did or didn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swiftyfeet Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 look back thru and youll see that he was penalized at fargo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Also it isn't all adults in the Crowd. even though I was sitting by a couple of chuckle heads who were grown men who were booing a kid but the majority of the Crowd I would say in high school kids. For Laf Harrison to say this is dirty didn't they have a 171 laydown in the ticket rd in 2003(seth parker and rob Whalman match) and wrestle the next round with a band aid on his shoulder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frigginhurts Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 i can't believe people are blaming the refs because they didn't stop him from doing an illegal move. people...think about what you are saying. the kid has to own up to using an illegal move and it came back to bite him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
learntherules Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Yeah go ahead and call everyone idiots. From what I have heard the majority of the stadium was booing. I guess the majority of the people there are all idiots also. I guess the majority of fans thought he was not injured. They all must be retarded. Give me a break. The kid looked fine in the finals. His coaches may have told him to take a dive, but it is still an unethical move on his teams part. If you care about the kids safety there is no way if he were hurt that he should have wrestled in the finals. Truth is it was a flop and everyone knows it. I am sorry but the Vlahos kid didn't deserve to be tossed from the finals because Cathedral decided to take a dive in high school wrestling. I am not blaming Willis because I did not see if it were him or his coaches who made the decision, but whoever it was took away from one young mans dreams. Another thing I want to know is how did McMurray like being the crowd favorite. He can not be use to that and he handled himself in his typically arrogant way. Congrats to him riding one handed for the last 20 seconds of the match. He again showed why he was so hated in the first place. I must say i Like the kids swagger though. Congrats.. You have to be one of the most ignorant people on the face of the Earth. How could you possibly say Willis looked fine in the finals? You obviously didn't see him attempt to warm up! Anyone who has seen him wrestle the last two years knows that he was legitimately hurt. Just because he was able to persevere and battle through the finals doesn't mean he took a a flop. All of your posts make you sound like you have no intelligence. I am sure your screen name is fitting for how you live your life... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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