HeavyHands Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 McCray did not get cheated out of the finals. He just got beat. It is different when your dreams are shatterd because of bs reasons. He did not get the chance to prove himself it was taken away by a bad coaching decision. We need to stop this situation from ever happening again. I can already see teams taking fake injuries into the state tournament for years to come. I will call it as I see it and this kid was not hurt. This guy is absolutely amazing! One of the best and unbiased referees this State has ever seen was there and explained to all of us the situation. Yet, this guy continues to complain and groan. Duck, I don't know you, but you are doing a disservice to Indiana wrestling. I hope you will look back on this situation and realize that your comments crossed the line -- maybe even apologize for your comments. If I could penalize anyone for unsportsmanlike conduct, it would be you. You have lost all credibility on this Board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duck_and_run Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Heavy hands, I am not saying that the ref did anything wrong. Actually he made the right call. What was not the right call was Willis not wrestling the rest f the semis. He looked fine in the finals andin no way appeared to be hurt. I am not even saying it was his call not to wrestle, but from what I hear the coaches made him take the fall in the semis. You would be complaining to if someone sandbagged his way to the finals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 I'm not sure an inanimate object, "the draw", can "cheat". Cheating implies knowingly doing something against the rules. Not sure that can happen. Lots of wrestlers get unfortunate draws. And that's what this may have been: unfortunate but not cheating. If you call doing an illegal move "cheating" him out of a state title chance, then I can call the draw "cheating" too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finderskeepers Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Duck and Run, how can you even possibly accuse the coaches of telling Willis not to finish--DID YOU READ Tom Clark's post? He was there! You are saying "from what I hear"! Tom Clark WAS THERE and reported that both Willis AND HIS COACHES wanted him to finish the match, but were overruled. This must stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickswife Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 I'm not sure an inanimate object, "the draw", can "cheat". Cheating implies knowingly doing something against the rules. Not sure that can happen. Lots of wrestlers get unfortunate draws. And that's what this may have been: unfortunate but not cheating. I am not sure what to think about this post. They way I read it is that you could make a case that Willis was cheated out of the chance to wrestle for the finals at 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Campbell Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 As a friend of the family and one of the coaching staff for Vlahos, it is still obvious to me that in the big picture the only thing to say is....Congratulations to Sean McMurray!!! Let's not lessen his incredible accomplishment of 3 state titles. He looked smooth and in complete control of this tournament. The other boys in his weight class have a lot of things to deal with, but that's usually the case for everyone other than the 14 champions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 My question is clearly medical: If a doctor says a wrestler is not healthy enough to wrestle, how then can that doctor clear the wrestler 2 hours later? I do not understand this. I am not taking shots at Willis, he wanted to wrestle but the doctor said "no". If a wrestler is medically unable to wrestle, then why are they allowed to finish the tournament very shortly after the injury. Seems like a liability issue to me on the doctors part and the part of the IHSAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire77 Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 AJ i also find it hard to believe a DR would reverse himself two hours later in this world of law suits we live in now. According to somone there the kid wanted to wrestle but the Dr said no, What changed? Big chance by the DR. I am glad he was not hurt in the finals. I was glad to see Sean not go after the arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
npwrestler189 Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 I think duck n run is trying to piss us all off lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainer Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 My question is clearly medical: Id a doctor ays a wrestler is not healthy enough to wrestle, how then can that doctor clear the wrestler 2 hours later? I do not understand this. I am not taking shots at Willis, he wanted to wrestle but the doctor said "no". If a wrestler is medically unable to wrestle, then why are they allowed to finish the tournament very shortly after the injury. Seems like a liability issue to me on the doctors part and the part of the IHSAA. As I've said in a previous post, one instance that I, as an athletic trainer, would not let a wrestler continue would be if there were some neurological issues involved with the shoulder injury. According to the IndyStar, Willis did complain of his hand going numb, and as a health professional you have to believe him. Many times this will not resolve in a minute and a half, but will do so in less than 4 or 5 hours (however long it was before he wrestled again). Each injury differs from the others (Colt McCoy's nerve injury is still healing I believe), so we have to make decisions based upon the individual and not on generalizations. I am, however, a little surprised he wasn't favoring it more during the finals. I'm sure he wasn't 100%, but he did look pretty good. As long as his strength and special tests looked good between matches, I certainly would have let him wrestle that night. Also, the Dr. would have had the time to discuss the situation with his parents in between matches. He probably warned them of any potential issues going forward, but obviously couldn't do that during injury time after his injury. These are some of the things that would have happened from a medical point of view at the high school level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finderskeepers Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 At the matside, the doctor is doing a 2-minute evaluation on a person in acute pain, and forced to make a go or no-go decision based on their best judgement at the time the clock runs out. Not much different than when a policeman must decide shoot or don't shoot. You don't have the benefit of time and thorough evaluation. You make the best call you can, and err on the side of safety, in the short time allotted. With 20-20 hindsight, maybe the decision would have been different. I don't think any of us have 20-20 hindsight. I can see how a decision about wrestling at Time A might be different hours later at Time B. You can get mad at the doctor if you feel he or she was too cautious. If you'd been the doctor, maybe your decision would have been different. You can get mad at Vlahos for risking a move like that in such a high stakes match, you can get mad at his coach, for not cautioning Vlahos that this was not the time or place to use the move, you can get mad at the rule book. The point is, the criticism of Willis and his coaches is out of place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justdo^it135 Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Wasn't Vlahos v McMurray match 7-0? McMurray was winning the title ethier way. You guys can say what you think about Willis laying down. But like I stated in my previous post of it being the doctor call is a 100 precent fact the match end 1-0 Vlahos was never winning that match. Vlahos should have been upset it was a bad situation but you have to compose yourself bad mouthing a kid on the stand is dumb and for you to say it did matter about 3rd or 4th because he lost his dream I'm guessing everyone there except the 14 who won lost their dream too and most of them acted with the class and respect that we pride out self on as indiana wrestlers or coaches. And as for my earlier post i wasn't saying Vlahos was on the team but am saying if it is the same staff you can cry foul if you did the samething to some else -OTR proves again he is head and shoulders above the rest of the posters on this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ontherise219 Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monster1216 Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 congrats to all at 160. it was very very tough. Mcmurray is just a beast! congrats sean! as for vlahos and willis.. i apologize to willis cuz ill man up and say yes i booed him at first. now knowing the dr called it im sry. i just wanted to see good match ups and in my opinion w/o an injury there that wouldve been one of the matches to really watch. once again im sry willis. and vlahos congrats on still being one of the top competitors in the state. i think you did good by tryin risky moves(not tryin illegal ones just risky) cuz that shows your not holding back and your going all out. most are very cautious out there. if i were there wrestling i probably would be cautious to. congrats to all weights! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frigginhurts Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 We have heard on this site from Tom Clark (?Grecoref?), a referee who witnessed all the matside interactions and decision-making. He has stated in no uncertain terms that Willis and his coaches CLEARLY wanted to finish wrestling Vlahos, but their wishes unequivocally overruled by the IHSAA medical people. We have also read from an athletic trainer that a numb extremity, which Willis had, is a reason to overrule a wrestler's and his coaches' desire to finish a match. We also have read that Willis, was seen to tell Vlahos, ?I?m sorry. I didn?t want to win this way.? These are facts. Folks, there are people on this board who, if Willis were Mother Teresa and his coaches were Jesus Christ, and God himself posted exactly what Tom Clark posted ? these people would still argue that Willis and his coaches had ?laid down? purposefully and calculatedly. People like this cannot be reasoned with. It is in their wiring, their hard-drive. Live video and audio, if it existed, of the entire matside evaluation would not change their mind?s view of what happened. They have their view of the world and no amount of reason can change it. The only way you win, if you can call it that, is by walking away. In that spirit, I propose we let this thread die. totally agree . i don't have a dog in this fight but i still can't see why people say Vlahos got cheated. He used an illegal move to hurt someone yet you want him to be the victim. are you kidding me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B Campbell Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 totally agree . i don't have a dog in this fight but i still can't see why people say Vlahos got cheated. He used an illegal move to hurt someone yet you want him to be the victim. are you kidding me? You sir, are ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatever-it-takes Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 Willis is only a sophomore. Common man you let him get up to football weight and healthy and I'm quite sure there would be no mouthing off going on whats that suppose to mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatever-it-takes Posted February 22, 2010 Share Posted February 22, 2010 I would like to see them go to different colleges actually you may get mad on the mat at practice, but most of that stays on the mat and you are still friends after, but the way this turned out i doubt they will be friends anytime soon the past is the past and we all have our bad moments, so let it all go and dont hold grudges, weve all done things that have been disrespectful to someone and not all of them have been posted on indianamat.. basically... dont judge either wrestler's entire life over this no matter what your opinion is on the situation, life goes on and people make mistakes were all human Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrstlrz28 Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 I've never seen a coach come on here and complain about one individual not shaking his hand after a single (extremely emotional) match and making such a big deal. Y2, you need to put yourself in Vlahos shoes. I was suprised he didn't just default that match. We all know who is the better wrestler after seeing them wrestle previously in the season. McCray did win the final match up, but I don't believe Vlahos was all there that match, and I think anyone else on this board with any sense (not duck and run), would understand that. Coach ---> Wrestler attacks via internet show much less class than a fine young man like Cameron not shaking an adults hand. I am almost ashamed to be involved with Indiana Wrestling anymore... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2CJ41 Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 It wouldn't have been an issue if his friend wouldn't have made 12 excuses for it. Also what other meetings are you referring to? They did not wrestle this season until the state semi-finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frigginhurts Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 You sir, are ignorant. thats the best you can do? "you sir are ignorant" - wow! again - 1. was the move illegal? 2. was the kid hurt? 3. was willis not 100% for the final match? the answer to all of the above is yes, now i ask once again, who is the victim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Peck Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 They bood at the time of the incident, they bood when he was introduced for the finals, they bood when he went out to the mat for the finals, they bood when he was getting an award for placing higher then over 300 other kids in his weight class. They were booing the kid, if they just wanted to boo cathederal once would have been more then enough, it was a pathetic display and the wrestling community was done a great diservice tonight by such a horrible display of sportsmanship. And no, I do not have any ties to Cathederal, I have ties to Warren Central, and have as much a reason to not like the Irish as anyone around, yet I would never take out any dislike I have for them on a high school kid. There is no defense for this. It was reprehensible for so called adults to act in this manner. This boy may never again reach this level in the tournament, and this is the image that he will be left with. Well said!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Peck Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 My question is clearly medical: If a doctor says a wrestler is not healthy enough to wrestle, how then can that doctor clear the wrestler 2 hours later? I do not understand this. I am not taking shots at Willis, he wanted to wrestle but the doctor said "no". If a wrestler is medically unable to wrestle, then why are they allowed to finish the tournament very shortly after the injury. Seems like a liability issue to me on the doctors part and the part of the IHSAA. Most all of the people who were booing have never had their kid in the situation the Cathedral kid was in. He was injured by an illegal hold. Whether he could go on, or not, it is clear that his ability to wrestle had been diminished and at the Semi-Final level of the State tournament if your ability to wrestle has been diminished then your ability to have a fair chance at victory is probably gone. In normal circumstances Injury time is very short in terms of figuring out the extent of any injury and whether a wrestler should continue or not. In some ways it becomes even shorter at the State tournament because of the lag time in the Medical personnel getting to the wrestler. As a coach I do apppreciate their help, but there have been times when I have wanted to say, "Hey the kid is okay.....get out of the way....Let him get back out there....we may need some of this time later." To me the people booing were saying that it would be okay for the wrestler who had executed the illegal hold to win over a physically impaired opponent. I do not buy it. I want to make it clear that I do not think for a minute that Cameron intentionally did anything to hurt Willis, but I do think blaming Tyler Willis when he was the one who was injured with the illegal hold, and who was told not to continue by trained medical personnel is irrational.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatever-it-takes Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 It wouldn't have been an issue if his friend wouldn't have made 12 excuses for it. Also what other meetings are you referring to? They did not wrestle this season until the state semi-finals. excuses and facts are different, he told u the same thing i did, im glad he sees it like it is, the thing is we both favor our wrestlers and lean more towards their side thats simply all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdrodd1 Posted February 23, 2010 Share Posted February 23, 2010 Well, for you haters out there, for whatever reason or another, let me know if you see Mr. Willis on the mat for Team State. If you would have seen his right hand twice the size of his left hand after the match, due to fluids from his shoulder injury, maybe you would have a different opinion. The boy that I have known for a long time couldn't even shake my hand. He could still give a loving hug with his left arm though.... To you private school haters out there.......What is wrong with a kid going to a private school? There is nothing wrong with Cathedral, Roncalli, Mater Dei or any other private school. I think that they are easy to hate because most of us can't afford to send our kids there. I believe that most people hate these schools because "They Recruit" kids.....Come on......Get real.....I would much rather have my kid going to a school that still cares....I haven't had the luxury to meet a bad McGinley, even though they beat my nephews butt, Ellis, Kiefer, Sims, Boots and the list goes on. I am not a Catholic and will never be one but I do know that they are still teaching morals and values in their schools... Just to let you know, the Tyler, that all of you that booed him on Saturday was told that he has to have surgery on his shoulder now, to prevent him from having further trouble with it. He is going to get a second opinion on it tomorrow. I am a big fan of Cameron Vlhose and his father Marty and have been for a long time. I am also a big fan of Tyler Willis and one of my best friends, Dave Willis (his father), It broke my heart to see what I seen. I so much wanted to see a great match and at the end, it would have brought tears to my eyes to see either one of them lose but when all that crap happened, I didn't want to be a fan anymore. I feel for both of these kids, Tyler didnt want to win that match, (you should have seen the tears that I seen...) and I know that Cameron didn't want it to end that way... It was so bad for both of them... Now, I am sure that Cameron will have a great future at Purdue and can't wait to see him there and who knows where Tyler will end up at....(his dad did wrestle and play football at Michigan State....(GAG) hope the boy goes to a real school like MICHIGAN... Let's end this thread for the sake of both of these kids so they can both get on with their lives.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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