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So much for small teams not being able to compete


duck_and_run

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Class wrestling makes more sense for the same reason class football and class basketball makes sense.  Larger talent pools increase the possibility for better quality.  I'm not saying that all small schools lack talent and depth...I'm sure Coach Smoker would field dress me like a 12 point buck if I said that.  However, it stands to reason.  If you have 2 kids competing for a 152lb varsity spot or you have 8 kids competing for a 152lb varsity spot...your more likely to get a sectional champion from one of the 8 kids compared to one of the 2 kids.  Obviously there are teams that are exceptions to this, and my hat goes off to them.  But to piggy-back off Y2 and Karl's arguments...a kid (or team for that matter) who wins a classed sectional title is not going to feel diminished because of it.  In essence, you're giving that individual and that team a better chance for achieving success...and that is to the benefit of the kids.

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Class wrestling makes more sense for the same reason class football and class basketball makes sense.  Larger talent pools increase the possibility for better quality.  I'm not saying that all small schools lack talent and depth...I'm sure Coach Smoker would field dress me like a 12 point buck if I said that.  However, it stands to reason.  If you have 2 kids competing for a 152lb varsity spot or you have 8 kids competing for a 152lb varsity spot...your more likely to get a sectional champion from one of the 8 kids compared to one of the 2 kids.  Obviously there are teams that are exceptions to this, and my hat goes off to them.  But to piggy-back off Y2 and Karl's arguments...a kid (or team for that matter) who wins a classed sectional title is not going to feel diminished because of it.  In essence, you're giving that individual and that team a better chance for achieving success...and that is to the benefit of the kids.

 

Totally disagree!.........by lowering the standards and making it easier for a program to achieve success what are we teaching the kids. I try to buy from local merchants but at times I go to Walmart because it makes financial sence. The local merchants (small schools) can't compete when Walmart (large school) comes to town and often go belly-up. It is not fair....Well guess what life is not fair. I know from the experience of going to a smaller county school that it was hard to compete. My senior year every away game we played (football) was the other teams homecoming, cuz we sucked. But the few wins we had that year against big schools were our measurement of success.

 

I believe that High School sports do a great job of preparing our youth for life. If we just give them success I believe we are sending them the wrong message.

 

Side note: Do away with the cool points, this board is about discussion and opinions. People take points away from poster for having a differing opinion. Does not make sence. I agree with taking points away for calling out a wrestler by name or getting obscene. But not for speaking your mind!

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first of all you didnt answer my question class or no class? if it is class  then i am sure you can get enough people to DONATE a runner-up trophy for the carroll sectional I do have kids and i do discuss what would be best for everyone that is involved.  Since you are new parent congrats and i hope you can to be able to coach and run this web site as your child gets older and more involved in things.  I would hope that the state has done some research on the class thing or do you have an idea if it is a discussion with the ihsaa and if so how close is it ?  Being relatively new to indianamat, How often does this discussion come up and does it just become a pissing match or is there a real push for it I agree it is always the kids that work hardest has the best chance to be a champion.  If it is his team, parents, school, or especially his coach that puts him on top of the podium it doesnt really matter how many kids are in his school because he is a champion!!!!    By the way Y2, how many boxes of wheaties does McCray eat? Damn he is a stud!!!

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ur darn tootin...if your old enough to die face down in a sand hill ur old enough to learn about life.  That's a great lesson to learn and the big boys will continue to give you small school sissies the beat down you deserve due to all that crybabyin ur doin.

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Totally disagree!.........by lowering the standards and making it easier for a program to achieve success what are we teaching the kids. I try to buy from local merchants but at times I go to Walmart because it makes financial sence. The local merchants (small schools) can't compete when Walmart (large school) comes to town and often go belly-up. It is not fair....Well guess what life is not fair. I know from the experience of going to a smaller county school that it was hard to compete. My senior year every away game we played (football) was the other teams homecoming, cuz we sucked. But the few wins we had that year against big schools were our measurement of success.

 

I believe that High School sports do a great job of preparing our youth for life. If we just give them success I believe we are sending them the wrong message.

So you thing that high school athletics should teach kids that "life isn't fair."  Awesome idea! 

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So you thing that high school athletics should teach kids that "life isn't fair."  Awesome idea!  

 

Again missing my point! I have never been good at explaining thru writing. But for me I would rather finish 34th out of 100, than 1st out of 10. It is just an opinion.

 

And for the record I do believe we should be honest with the kids. Life is not fair. Teaching them that it is, will set them up for failure. It should not be our number 1 teaching point, but yes kids should be prepared.

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first of all you didnt answer my question class or no class? if it is class  then i am sure you can get enough people to DONATE a runner-up trophy for the carroll sectional

Class if you can't figure it out.  We weren't the best small school in our sectional so no need for a trophy.  If we lose to Whitko in a classed system and competed hard then I am happy with that.  Just as when our football team had to go through Jimtown in sectional.  

 

I do have kids and i do discuss what would be best for everyone that is involved.  Since you are new parent congrats and i hope you can to be able to coach and run this web site as your child gets older and more involved in things. 

So you would let a 15 year old decide what time he goes to bed and how late he can stay out on a school night?  I find that hard to believe that as a parent you let your kid decide things like that.  Have you ever made a decision for your kid that you knew was right, but he/she did not like and didn't agree with?  I am sure you have made decisions that aren't popular with your kids, as all parents have and will continue to do so.  No parent lets the kid run the family.

 

I would hope that the state has done some research on the class thing or do you have an idea if it is a discussion with the ihsaa and if so how close is it ? 

Not sure how close it is, but the IHSWCA survey had a couple questions in that regard.  Also many coaches are for at least a classed team portion.  

 

Being relatively new to indianamat, How often does this discussion come up and does it just become a pissing match or is there a real push for it

It comes up a lot, and yes its a pissing match that no one will agree on.  However, over the years more and more people are becoming proponents of class wrestling.  

 

I agree it is always the kids that work hardest has the best chance to be a champion.  If it is his team, parents, school, or especially his coach that puts him on top of the podium it doesnt really matter how many kids are in his school because he is a champion!!!!    By the way Y2, how many boxes of wheaties does McCray eat? Damn he is a stud!!!

From the statistics over the past 11 years about 74% of the state qualifiers are from big schools.  Are the big schools working harder than the small schools?

 

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ur darn tootin...if your old enough to die face down in a sand hill ur old enough to learn about life.  That's a great lesson to learn and the big boys will continue to give you small school sissies the beat down you deserve due to all that crybabyin ur doin.

 

Anyone ever told you that you're a jackass?  Just curious.

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Again missing my point! I have never been good at explaining thru writing. But for me I would rather finish 34th out of 100, than 1st out of 10. It is just an opinion.

 

And for the record I do believe we should be honest with the kids. Life is not fair. Teaching them that it is, will set them up for failure. It should not be our number 1 teaching point, but yes kids should be prepared.

You say you went to a small school.  How did they celebrate sectional, regional, semi-state championships there?  Do they toss the trophies in the trash?  Do the kids all look depressed after winning those classed trophies.  Does the school hide all those trophies behind the wrestling, golf, track and cross country trophies?

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Again missing my point! I have never been good at explaining thru writing. But for me I would rather finish 34th out of 100, than 1st out of 10. It is just an opinion.

 

And for the record I do believe we should be honest with the kids. Life is not fair. Teaching them that it is, will set them up for failure. It should not be our number 1 teaching point, but yes kids should be prepared.

 

I agree.  Life is not fair.  I believe high school sports should teach kids how to be adults.  However, I also believe that athletics should build confidence.  No matter how we spin it, high school sports are just high school sports.  I'm all for holding kids accountable and having them go into everything with no excuses.  But, if there is an opporunity to improve on a flawed system, then why shouldn't it be done?  The class system has done great things for basketball and football.  I doubt very much that life lessons went by the wayside because these teams were competing against teams of similar size.

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You say you went to a small school.  How did they celebrate sectional, regional, semi-state championships there?  Do they toss the trophies in the trash?  Do the kids all look depressed after winning those classed trophies.  Does the school hide all those trophies behind the wrestling, golf, track and cross country trophies?

 

Well during my time we really did not win any....even in the class.

 

But those that were won were revered and placed in honor. I am sure that a Class title would be revered. But answer me this, does making it easier for a team to win, do anything but fill the trophy case? For our football team we took pride in ourselves in our accomplishments not in the trophy case. I feel we were better prepared because of it.

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Well during my time we really did not win any....even in the class.

 

But those that were won were revered and placed in honor. I am sure that a Class title would be revered. But answer me this, does making it easier for a team to win, do anything but fill the trophy case? For our football team we took pride in ourselves in our accomplishments not in the trophy case. I feel we were better prepared because of it.

Wow, so those kids that win those trophies get recognition and a sense of accomplishment for hard work.  Did they have to work less hard to win those trophies?  Did they only practice two times a week since it is classed?  Did the kids that won in a classed system not learn the life lessons that the ones in a non-classed system learned? 

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Wow, so those kids that win those trophies get recognition and a sense of accomplishment for hard work.  Did they have to work less hard to win those trophies?  Did they only practice two times a week since it is classed?  Did the kids that won in a classed system not learn the life lessons that the ones in a non-classed system learned? 

 

So I guess we could just give everyone that works hard a trophy or a championship! Heck why even compete? Lets just hand out awards!

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So I guess we could just give everyone that works hard a trophy or a championship! Heck why even compete? Lets just hand out awards!

Great idea on that note, lets not have any weight classes because I have always wondered if the 103lbs state champion can beat the heavyweight state champion.  I say let them duke it out so they can be a TRUE state champion.  I bet all the 103lbers throw away their medals because they know they aren't the TRUE wrestling state champion in Indiana.  I bet they don't work hard for what they achieve and never learn any life lessons involved with competing in athletics.

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Great idea on that note, lets not have any weight classes because I have always wondered if the 103lbs state champion can beat the heavyweight state champion.  I say let them duke it out so they can be a TRUE state champion.

 

Now thats sarcasm! OUCH!

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Now thats sarcasm! OUCH!

 

It is the same thing you are saying, why not?  We should not have weight classes, so that we can find the REAL TRUE Indiana State Champion.  Screw the little guys, if you can't run with the big dogs, get out of the way.  If you are smaller than everyone, just work harder.  If you don't succeed, life isn't fair, so get over it.

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It is the same thing you are saying, why not?  We should not have weight classes, so that we can find the REAL TRUE Indiana State Champion.  Screw the little guys, if you can't run with the big dogs, get out of the way.  If you are smaller than everyone, just work harder.  If you don't succeed, life isn't fair, so get over it.

 

But we do have weight classes. That is the leveler the great equalizer. No 300lb vs 200lb football of-set. The weight classes are the biggest argument for no Class for Wrestling. I do bend and see your points for team sports, you have truly made an impression........but not for wrestling.

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But we do have weight classes. That is the leveler the great equalizer. No 300lb vs 200lb football of-set. The weight classes are the biggest argument for no Class for Wrestling. I do bend and see your points for team sports, you have truly made an impression........but not for wrestling.

Screw weight classes, I want the true ultimate champion of Indiana.  Size doesn't matter to me, if you are a small like Jared Brooks, you just need to work harder to be the ultimate champion, who cares if Travis Thomas is 170lbs bigger than you. 

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It is the same thing you are saying, why not?  We should not have weight classes, so that we can find the REAL TRUE Indiana State Champion.  Screw the little guys, if you can't run with the big dogs, get out of the way.  If you are smaller than everyone, just work harder.  If you don't succeed, life isn't fair, so get over it.

 

agree 1000% brotha.

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Haha good point Y2.  NOT!!!  No one has ever said to get rid of wieght classes.  Everyone knows that would be unfair.  Class wrestling people never have a good response to why a big school individual has a better shot to win state then a small school individual.  The fact is they don't have a better shot it is equal.  They act as though from birth big school individuals are better then those small school guys.

 

Then they bring up dumb points like small school people play multiple sports.  Big deal at least they are lifting and training all year long.  Small schools never look at there advantages, like the fact that wrestlers can get more individual coaching since there are less wrestlers.  Small schools also have bigger and stronger guys because they do lift wieghts all year long.  Playing multiple sports is very benificial in many ways.

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Haha good point Y2.  NOT!!!  No one has ever said to get rid of wieght classes.  Everyone knows that would be unfair.  Class wrestling people never have a good response to why a big school individual has a better shot to win state then a small school individual.  The fact is they don't have a better shot it is equal.  They act as though from birth big school individuals are better then those small school guys.

 

Then they bring up dumb points like small school people play multiple sports.  Big deal at least they are lifting and training all year long.  Small schools never look at there advantages, like the fact that wrestlers can get more individual coaching since there are less wrestlers.  Small schools also have bigger and stronger guys because they do lift wieghts all year long.  Playing multiple sports is very benificial in many ways.

 

Y2 said to get rid of weight classes to see who the true champion is.  You say that would be unfair.  Is the the unfair part that the bigger you are the more advantage you have???

 

Class wrestling advocates have pointed to numerous advantages that big schools have.  Numbers, facilities, practice partners, number of coaches, etc. have been explained ad nauseum.

 

If small schools have an equal shot then they should have equal representation.  They do not.  Your first paragraph upon looking at the data argues for class wrestling.  Thank you.

 

Your second paragraph is much of the same.  If playing multiple sports, etc. is an advantage then the data would show equal representation at the state finals.  The data shows other wise.  You are making valid points why we need class wrestling.  Thank you.

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If I wore a 1a State Championship ring, I would be a bit hesitant to walk around bragging that I was a "STATE CHAMPION"  By allowing for there to be 2 or 3 State champions you diminish what it means to carry that title.   It would feel a little bit tainted and I would feel cheated that I never had the opportunity to actually win a true state championship.

 

I have a buddy who went to a class 2a football state championship game with a LOSING RECORD.  What a joke.  He has a state runner up ring.  I will take my accomplishments any day of the week over his, knowing that I competed against everybody.  

 

By the way, he doesn't even wear the ring nor does it even mean that much to him.  

 

I hope indiana wrestling never comes to that.

 

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