Input for the ISWA on issues for next year

[TheAncientElder]

Y2CJ41:

 

1. To improve the participation in Freestyle/Greco you are going to have to convince the wrestlers that this style is to their advantage. At this point FS/Greco comes around every four years (Olympics). Sorry about that, but Folkstyle is always there (middle school, high school, college). Stop hammering away at the IHSAA, ISWA, IHSWCA, etc. Go to the national level and work for a common level in wrestling.

 

2. Again you have to go to the national level to address this one. USA sets cost for cards.

 

3. The tournaments are there but the participation is low. Two tournaments or one hundred doesn?t matter.

 

4. RED FLAG, hand picked is a recipe for disaster. Send the best you can recruit at each weight (according to the selection criteria) and work with that. Trying to beg or pay a better wrestler to participate may get you a medal or title but will cost you in the long run.

 

5. This is a control issue. Where are the wrestlers at any given point? The controlling organization is at the mercy of the hosting group as to the how the wrestlers are being monitored.

 

6. Open for discussion.

 

7. The ISWA hold OPEN monthly meetings for exactly this purpose. Please see the ISWA site for time and location.

 

8. If they are not showing up for the existing camps and tournaments there must be a problem. Lack of interest, coaches not interested in female participation, etc.?

 

9. The number of officials has always been a problem. Money is not the issue. Control is the issue. The ISWA, IHSAA, etc have to crack down even more on coaches. I almost want to say that coaches, like officials, should be licensed. More and more you are seeing high school wrestlers getting into coaching with little or no teaching. Rules change from year to year but coaches are not required to attend rules clinics. In my opinion if a coach approaches the table more than once in a match either he is not current on the rules or the official has a problem.

 

10. A work in progress. Keep up the efforts.

 

11. missing?

 

12. Folkstyle is a cashcow. Sorry if that offend some. If there was not enough participation the season would be shortened.

 

13. missing?

 

14. missing?

 

15. The number of kids that can go has not really changed. The number of tournaments is the problem. If you do not recognize the tournament some other organization will. If it is not a qualifying tournament of some sort it could probably be classified as a moneymaker for some organization.

 

Wildcatcountry97:

 

1. Won?t happen. Folkstyle, at this point, is to popular.

 

2. There is not that big a change in the stats.

 

3. AMEN

 

4. AMEN. And you are right on the, ?outdated MD singlets?. Possibly the ISWA could decide on a single uniform and go with a dating format.

 

TheAncientElder (TAE)

 

The Imperial Potentate and Grand Poobah of Classless wrestling in Indiana.

I wear my Fez with pride.

 

www.theancientelder.net

 

 

 

[AJ]

15.  How can we bring back the honor of making TEAM INDIANA?

 

It has already been mentioned, but it is true that there are more top level tournaments today that going to Fargo does not mean what it once did.  High School teams can go to Disney Duals or wrestlers can go to Virginia Beach and been seen by scouts.  These opportunities give wrestlers more choices and options.  Fargo is not the be all anymore.  If wrestlers are choosing the other options, then financially it would be hard for them to still compete at Fargo.  Fargo is still the top tournament for Cadets and Juniors, but it is not the only place for high level exposure anymore. 

 

 

 

Improve Greco participation?

Greco participation will not improve if we continue to treat it as second rate.  Having greco tournaments on Friday night and Freestyle on Saturday tells kids and parents that Greco is not really as important as freestyle.  We do not highlight greco, we just kinda throw it in the mix.  This is a hard problem to fix due to time.

[Y2CJ41]

I guess someone missed the disclaimer at the top.

NOTE:  This is not a place to argue about ideas - this is simply to get some ideas for the ISWA to consider.  We'll do all the arguing in a proper meeting setting.

 

But since you want to call me out, here goes.

1. To improve the participation in Freestyle/Greco you are going to have to convince the wrestlers that this style is to their advantage. At this point FS/Greco comes around every four years (Olympics). Sorry about that, but Folkstyle is always there (middle school, high school, college). Stop hammering away at the IHSAA, ISWA, IHSWCA, etc. Go to the national level and work for a common level in wrestling.

The coaches need to teach the styles for the kids to go use them.  I have heard way too many coaches complain about the rule changes in FS/GR and if they spent as much time teaching techniques as they do complaining their kids would be a ton better.  It starts with coaches emphasizing these styles.

 

We will never go to international styles at the high school and collegiate levels for two very distinct reasons.  First, just look at the throw from Fargo that is being discussed.  Secondly, athletic directors do not know enough about wrestling or care enough to change it.

 

For that reason, we need a way to emphasize all three styles instead of just one.

 

2. Again you have to go to the national level to address this one. USA sets cost for cards.

That is why I said it won't happen.  

 

3. The tournaments are there but the participation is low. Two tournaments or one hundred doesn?t matter.

The number of freestyle tournaments within an hour drive of where I live has dropped tremendously.  Some this year even went to a folkstyle tournament during what is usually the freestyle season.  During the folkstyle season there are tournaments within a half hour of us every weekend from late January until March.  

 

4. RED FLAG, hand picked is a recipe for disaster. Send the best you can recruit at each weight (according to the selection criteria) and work with that. Trying to beg or pay a better wrestler to participate may get you a medal or title but will cost you in the long run.

Is that disaster competing for a medal every year?  Other states handpick their teams and do quite well.  Sometimes the way we do it for 50 years isn't always the best way.  Open your eyes and look around us, say Illinois and Ohio and how are they successful with their duals teams?  

 

5. This is a control issue. Where are the wrestlers at any given point? The controlling organization is at the mercy of the hosting group as to the how the wrestlers are being monitored.

The kids would have practices throughout the day and basically just stay at the host family's house at night.  Nothing too big of a deal here.  It would be about the same as they do now, just a different and possibly cheaper place to stay for both the ISWA and the kid.  If there were 25 kids at each training camp, with 10 needing a host family that is a lot cheaper than housing 25 kids.  Use of a school's facilities would be cheaper than using St. Joseph's.  

 

6. Open for discussion.

wow, one thing that you don't rip, thanks!

 

7. The ISWA hold OPEN monthly meetings for exactly this purpose. Please see the ISWA site for time and location.

I'm sorry I answered this question.  I will not offer any more suggestions even when prompted to unless its at a certified ISWA meeting.  Sorry for wasting your time.

 

8. If they are not showing up for the existing camps and tournaments there must be a problem. Lack of interest, coaches not interested in female participation, etc.?

I'm sure there are more issues than the ones I presented.  I never stated they were the sole reasons.

 

9. The number of officials has always been a problem. Money is not the issue. Control is the issue. The ISWA, IHSAA, etc have to crack down even more on coaches. I almost want to say that coaches, like officials, should be licensed. More and more you are seeing high school wrestlers getting into coaching with little or no teaching. Rules change from year to year but coaches are not required to attend rules clinics. In my opinion if a coach approaches the table more than once in a match either he is not current on the rules or the official has a problem.

Coaches do have to go to an IHSAA rules clinic every year.  There needs to be an incentive to become an official, it is not a fun thing to do for free food.  Dangle the carrot and you'll get a few rabbits, don't dangle any carrots and you'll be lucky to get one rabbit.

 

10. A work in progress. Keep up the efforts.

I'm sure in some way that is a snide remark towards me, but I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels the way I do.  I like the website and it has all the information I need, but sometimes with that much info its not easy to organize it.

 

11. missing?

I had no comment, I'm glad you know your numbers.  I see nothing wrong with the publication.  

 

12. Folkstyle is a cashcow. Sorry if that offend some. If there was not enough participation the season would be shortened.

You are right, I would like to see it shorter to allow more time for FS/GR, but it would hurt where it counts.

 

13. missing?

I had no comment, I'm glad you know your numbers.  I do not know enough about the trip to comment.

 

14. missing?

I had no comment.  The people in charge have worked hard to secure the best venues possible.  Of course I would love for the state finals to be at Lucas Oil Stadium, but I doubt that will ever happen.

 

15. The number of kids that can go has not really changed. The number of tournaments is the problem. If you do not recognize the tournament some other organization will. If it is not a qualifying tournament of some sort it could probably be classified as a moneymaker for some organization.

Is this agreement?

[TheAncientElder]

Y2,

 

Based  on  your glowing response I can't wait to hear from WildCatWrestling1902.

 

TheAncientElder (TAE)

 

The Imperial Potentate and Grand Poobah of Classless wrestling in Indiana.

I wear my Fez with pride.

 

www.theancientelder.net

 

 

[MattM]

As I mentioned before I don't the ISWA should handpick the National Dual Teams, but they could talk about putting a criteria in place to narrow down the selection.  Since information about event place winners has to be sent in anyways the selection committee could easily look at the kids who have won or placed high and place them into preformance groups (maybe 5 kids in each group).  The committee could then look at the highest preformance group and select the who they feel are the best members.  That would give much more criteria to the process, but at least give the commitee some wiggle room in selection so that no anomalies to the process get selected over quality wrestlers.  i.e. a kid is selected for the duals based on freestyle event wins/placement but in actuality he was a good wrestler but waas able to gain criteria points by being the only kid at each of the events he participated in.  If all of that group declines then go to the next 5 and so on.  If additional information is needed for a committee to select between a group of kids they could look into that kids preformance in other events like greco competitions, ISWA folkstyle state, or middle school state/IHSAA High School state.  Then if need be look at the next hen considering who to pick.  That would give you a decent criteria to go off of and also advocate that wrestlers participate in more events if they want a chance to make the national dual teams.  I only advocate selecting a team in the Freestyle/Greco season is exented so that we would have not choice but for anotehr form of selection.  If the season is not extended then I'm fine with keeping the placement criteria but after you get down to a certain placer (3rd or 4th maybe) turning the national event down then maybe we should look at other criteria such as kids that did not for some reason participate in state but had large amounts of individual wins during that year.

 

 

I guess another ISWA topic of discussion would be is the folkstyle season best for athletes, coaches and the freestyle/greco season where it is currently or would it be better served occuring in the early fall as I have heard some states have?  I'm not sure of the answer for this one but I do see some positives and negatives to both options.

 

 

I would also be curious the amount of research the ISWA does into the stucture and processes of other state?  State organizations that have had years of sucess and also state that seem to be growing and improving very rapidly in recent years?  Borrowing idea or learning from their mistakes could help improve our structure and process as well.

[Short Jay]

1.  Get rid of the Folkstyle season for Cadets and Junior.  In the 90's freestyle and greco was all I wrestled after season.  Those who want to wrestle folk will find ways to wrestle.  Rules and rule changes do affect greco and freestyle.  I have parents tell me that their son will not wrestle greco because of the lift.  The lift can be very dangerous, we have seen the videos.  I know that Indiana has little to do with rules but this is an issue.

 

4.  Handpicked teams would be the best way.  However, some credit does need to be given for top placement at ISWA event.

 

5.  Joe mentioned multiple camps sites, that would be a plus.  Not making them mandatory could help.

 

9.  Pay

 

12.  Too long

[AJ]

Has the ISWA ever considered breaking the state into regions and then having "regional" tournaments and having the top 8 from each region qualify for the state tournament?  This might lower the wrestlers who would make it to state, but it would allow the freestyle state tournament to become more meaningful maybe?  Wrestlers could qualify for their regional by placing top 3 in any local tournament so local tournaments should not be impacted negatively.  The high level spotlight may actually lure more high school wrestlers, and younger, to wrestle during the freestyle season?

[TheAncientElder]

AJ,

 

They had that about 20 years ago. Only the top 6 from each sectional quallified for state.

 

TheAncientElder (TAE)

 

The Imperial Potentate and Grand Poobah of Classless wrestling in Indiana.

I wear my Fez with pride.

 

www.theancientelder.net

 

 

[MattM]

I guess the issue with that concept would be does the ISWA think it would help to look and feel more like the IHSAA tournament series and if so how much?  In my view I would think maybe 8 regional events (all held a week before state) would be a good with top 3 from any event qualifying.  I would say a reason we have changed to top 4 now is because someone felt it would increase state finals numbers, but if the regionals encourage participation just taking the top 3 would work too.  Then invite the top 3 from the regionals to the state event so that no weight had more than a max of 24.  If someone in the top 3 doesn't go or isn't able to go they are not replaced by the next person because that could be a headache just to worry about and it wouldn't effect the tournament much anyway.  At least thats a new idea that could draw some attention by making it a more exclusive event.  If a concept like this did occur we maybe be able to find a slightly smaller venue to host the state finals compeition if the number of qualifiers wasn't extreamly high.  That could then help in moving it to a different date and also as someone mentioned allowing for more of a type of highlight match for the championship.  Plus possibly it would allow for more of an award moment for the top two or three place winners.  Anyone lower than that probably would have already gotten their award an left so awarding the top 3 at most would probably be your best bet.

[Coach Peck]

I guess the issue with that concept would be does the ISWA think it would help to look and feel more like the IHSAA tournament series and if so how much?  In my view I would think maybe 8 regional events (all held a week before state) would be a good with top 3 from any event qualifying.   I would say a reason we have changed to top 4 now is because someone felt it would increase state finals numbers, but if the regionals encourage participation just taking the top 3 would work too.  Then invite the top 3 from the regionals to the state event so that no weight had more than a max of 24.  If someone in the top 3 doesn't go or isn't able to go they are not replaced by the next person because that could be a headache just to worry about and it wouldn't effect the tournament much anyway.  At least thats a new idea that could draw some attention by making it a more exclusive event.  If a concept like this did occur we maybe be able to find a slightly smaller venue to host the state finals compeition if the number of qualifiers wasn't extreamly high.  That could then help in moving it to a different date and also as someone mentioned allowing for more of a type of highlight match for the championship.  Plus possibly it would allow for more of an award moment for the top two or three place winners.  Anyone lower than that probably would have already gotten their award an left so awarding the top 3 at most would probably be your best bet.

 

You are probably young enough so as not to remember it, but the ISWA did something like this at one time.  They held what were called Sectionals (one tournament in each ISWA Section) where kids qualified for the State Tournament the next weekend.  I cannot remember if four or six kids qualified, but I liked it and I have brought it up a few times since it was discontinued (in the first half of the 80s), but I think it is a viable option.

[AJ]

AJ,

 

They had that about 20 years ago. Only the top 6 from each sectional quallified for state.

 

TheAncientElder (TAE)

 

The Imperial Potentate and Grand Poobah of Classless wrestling in Indiana.

I wear my Fez with pride.

 

www.theancientelder.net

 

 

 

 

Could either you or Rex describe how it worked? Was it a success? Why did the ISWA change?

[Coach Peck]

AJ,

 

They had that about 20 years ago. Only the top 6 from each sectional quallified for state.

 

TheAncientElder (TAE)

 

The Imperial Potentate and Grand Poobah of Classless wrestling in Indiana.

I wear my Fez with pride.

 

www.theancientelder.net

 

 

 

Could either you or Rex describe how it worked? Was it a success? Why did the ISWA change?

 

 

 

I hope Dick gives a perspective as well, but as I remember it people felt that it was not needed because with six qualifying from each Section it did not cut the number that much.  Some people complained that the ISWA was trying to get more money by having the extra week.  Also, there were a few minor situations where people went to a different Sectionalthan where they lived so as to avoid certain wrestlers.  The numbers are bigger now, and Sectionals (oe whatever name) might be a good way to narrow the field, and to make the State a more special experieince.  I remember a time when it was kind of special to qualify for the ISWA State.  I hope Dick will weigh in on this.  If he contradicts my recollection of the process for the old Sectionals I will defer to him. 

 

[MattM]

Yeah I was a little young in those days!  But, the idea may have some teeth if it bring back some more enthusiasm about making it to state.  I think 3-4 qualifiers at most from each "section" (if we just had the 5 sections) would be plenty.  6 qualifiers does sound a little overkill and by a result would make state less significant to make it to.  If 5 sections seems to small then maybe we could redistict into 8 sections and just have the top 3 qualify.  Heck if 3 from each "section" (5 or 8) went to state that would increase over all participating for most weight classes from the the recent numbers.

[Coach Peck]

Below are some of my  answers to a questions on a survey the ISWA sent to Board Memebrs:

 

What can we do to better prepare our National Teams for competition, or raise the quality of Freestyle, and Greco wrestling in our state?

 

Hold a series of shorter camps open to our highest level kids at a very minimal cost.  These camps could be held in proximity to national competitions, but really should be held well in advance so as to instruct kids in things they should be working on to succeed in the competitions.  As we hold camps now they serve little purpose and may even be detrimental in that they wear kids down and they also may cause kids to attempt to make changes in their wrestling at a time when there is not enough time for those changes to be implemented and ingrained.  

 

Also, a suggested training plan should be given to each athlete that includes the essentials of technique, strategy, and conditioning that we feel will help them succeed.

 

These camps could also be places where kids make contact with each other and form relationships that might enable them to train together when not at the camps.  

 

I would suggest that we need to choose the teams earlier, or choose a group of athletes, based on past performance, and recommendation, that would form the core of athletes our National Team might come from.

 

I would also suggest that if there are positions to fill on National Teams, they be filled from this group once the highest level qualifiers have been given the opportunity.  This might help us fill our team with the better kids, or at least kids that have been training regularly in our program instead of some 8th place guy who really doesn?t have any business going.

 

 

What is the best method to select our dual teams?

 

See above??..If you are the State Champion at our Freestyle, or Greco State, you should be able to go to the Duals.  I would not have a problem with choosing the second team with a challenge system or some sort of selection process, but it would need to be outlined in a way that is understandable to athletes and parents.  I will say that I think a challenge system, or coaches pick system, for the other spot on the Duals Team presents at least as many problems as it solves.  I do not have time to go into all of them here, but I would be glad to present them verbally.

 

 

What can we do to better market our National Teams?

 

I know at one time they put out a booklet with the kids picture and information in it.  This might be an idea.  Another idea might be to get the information and place the information and a picture of each wrestler in a PDF type booklet on our website.  We could print some cards up for each coach to have at the events which would have an explanation of what we offer and the web address for the PDF Booklet.  A college coach could go online and print out a page or the entire booklet.  The Booklet itself could also be emailed to College coaches and the media both before and after the events.

 

At the end of each summer we could make a few notebooks with each kid?s page in it as well as pictures of the teams, any Champions or All-Americans, a few action pictures, and maybe a few athlete/parent quotes in it that could be used should someone approach any parties that might be interested in sponsorship.

 

 

What can we do to make our State Tournament run more efficient?

 

Possibly better planning and rotation of Officials, and Table Help, so as to alleviate down time at the mats.

 

Sectionals?  Why not?

 

What can we do to increase the number of Women wrestlers in the State?

 

I think if our goal is to have a great women?s program quickly we will fail.

 

If it was my goal to eventually have a strong Women?s Wrestling Program I would choose an area of the State and work the dickens out of it developing programs at various levels and working hard at recruiting girls to wrestle.  For example, it you worked from an area with a driving radius of 45 minutes and had a goal of developing four solid programs with kids level, middle school level, and High School level girls a few people could work this and build a foundation to work from.  Right now there are no strong women?s programs and nothing to point too other than a few reasonably successful girls scattered all over the State.  In a couple of years when these programs are solid it would be much easier to get some more programs going.  

 

I think one thing that frustrates people involved in Men?s wrestling when it comes to women?s wrestling is the fact that women?s wrestling proponents in Indiana want it all now.  They fail to look at the history of wrestling in Indiana.  For about 30 years there were no more than around 20-40 High School Programs in Indiana then it finally took off and slowly built itself up to where it is today.  IF WE WANT IT ALL NOW THEN IT WILL BR A LONG TIME BEFORE IT HAPPENS.

 

In all of this I am not saying to forsake women in the rest of the state.  I am just saying concentrating on an area might reap better rewards since the number of people who are willing to work for women?s wrestling at the moment is limited.  

 

 

How can we improve our Website?

 

At times when I get on our website it does not seem user friendly in terms of finding the most important things like Athlete card forms and some of those things.  I guess just really review it in terms of navigation.  That may just be me and our website might be fine.

 

 

How can we improve our Publication, and yet control or lower the cost?

 

I think it could be downsized immensely with most of it (maybe all) being online in PDF format.  This PDF Booklet could actually contain more information (as well as advertising) than our current publication.  It could also be emailed to clubs and to those on the ISWAs email list.  I would think that we could set a goal of two years to make the switch to all on line.  This year the publication could be downsized with part of it online and then next year it could be all online after we made it clear this year that next year it would be all online.  Another thing about this is that if it were in a PDF format the Office could email it to anyone who for some reason needed it, and as people joined, who have not been a part of the program, the office could email them a copy if they place an email address on their application.

 

By doing this we would save the cost of printing, and mailing and maybe the money could be used where we need it in Programs.

 

 

How can we better educate our wrestlers, and parents about the opportunities for instruction, camps, National Teams, petitioning, and scholarships?

 

See above.  If we can get a better data base with as many valid email addresses as possible we can do a better job of disciminating information to everyone.  Also we might be able to target groups that certain information would be more pertinent too.

 

 

Can we do anything to better our Folkstyle Program?

 

Folkstyle is somewhat out of control and will remain out of control until the Lord returns or some other catastrophic event occurs.

 

 

Do you think Folkstyle season is too long, or at the right time of year?

 

It is all too long

 

I do not think we can do anything to actually cut back the Folkstyle season.  

 

 

We have numerous issues with State, Regional, National and Camp Venues do you have any ideas to solve these issues?

 

Shorter, more frequent, camps held at various locations around the State.  I believe I mention this above so look at that.  We need to look at each issue to determine what can be done to improve.

 

 

In years past the concept of making TEAM INDIANA was every Indiana wrestlers dream, and was a prestigious honor.  What can we do to sell that idea to fill our teams?  There are many opportunities for our kids to choose from.  What can we do to build a fever pitch to make those teams again?

 

When Team Indiana was ?every wrestlers dream? it was about the only show in town.  That is not the case anymore and never will be again.  When a group of kids from a school can travel together, and wrestle at a level of competition that is appropriate for them why wouldn?t they do it?  Especially when the cost is less for them to participate and they get more bang for their buck than they do with our camps/trips.  They would be crazy not to do it.

 

The question? What can we do to sell that idea to fill our teams? Kind of ticks me off.  Right now we FILL our teams with a lot of CANNON FODDER.  I personally cringe when one of my kids, who placed 6th or 7th at the ISWA State, comes to me and says someone called and wants them to go to Fargo.  It is a disservice to the kids and the program to send them if they do not have a prayer of competing.  If there is a choice between going to a good Team Camp, or a Dual Meet event with your team versus some of the events where it is two and out, or 0-7, which one is most beneficial to the kids?

 

These are simply my feelings.  I don't think so highly of myself as to believe they are all the best ideas out there.

 

[Y2CJ41]

I love receiving my book every year in the mail, but in all honesty its only read it....well, you know where.  I have saved numerous books for reference to the good ole days.  I think the idea of putting it all online would help cut costs tremendously.  I know that is it one of the biggest expenses the ISWA has right now and you can almost eliminate it totally by putting it all online.  I would definitely sacrifice my book for more money in other areas of the ISWA. 

 

Also, one other thing about the website that I would like to see is having the state finals results from the past years, not just the current year. 

[TheAncientElder]

 

The sectionals were implemented to reduce the size of the tournament. The state was held at Tech HS. It was a one-day tournament and often lasted well past midnight.

In the mid 80?s the ISWA implemented Sectionals to reduce the size by allowing wrestlers to qualify for the state.

You had to place in the top 3 at a local tournament to qualify for the sectionals.

You had to place in the top 6 at a sectional to qualify for the state.

 

Rex was right about wrestlers going out of their sectional to qualify for the state.

It became impossible to control. Wrestlers were using fake addresses to ?qualify? for a certain sectional. It was impossible to check at weigh-ins. The ISWA still has this problem periodically at the state with out of state wrestlers.

And the sectionals would kill a weekend that local teams need to hold their own moneymaking tournaments.

 

The ISWA has very little income other than the state tournaments and to reduce the size of these would eliminate the fairgrounds as a venue and reduce the amount of money that could be used to support the wrestlers at national tournaments.

 

JUST ATTEND THE ISWA MONTHLY MEETINGS AND TALK TO THE PEOPLE.

IT WILL OPEN YOUR EYES AS TO WHAT IT TAKES TO RUN THE ORGANIZATION.

 

TheAncientElder (TAE)

 

The Imperial Potentate and Grand Poobah of Classless wrestling in Indiana.

I wear my Fez with pride.

 

www.theancientelder.net

 

[Drooke]

Hey folks.  It appears that some excellent discussion is happening in this thread and I thought some of you might be interested in a project that some guys over at theopenmat.com have been working on.

 

It is called the USA Wrestling Documentation Project and was created by Ray Brinzer.  Although in its infancy, it already contains some great information.  It is based on a Wikipedia format.

 

Here is the link to the thread http://forum.theopenmat.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4370  and the link to the actual project page is contained in Ray's first post.

 

 

[MattM]

I think if a portion of the sectional entry went to the state that would add to the revenue.  I'm also not sure on the cost of the fair grounds but I'm still all for pushing the event back a few weeks and finding another venue for the event.  That would then not take anything away from local events but instead add a week or two they can be hosted before the sectional and then regional.  Seems like a fieldhouse someplace could be large enough to host a 2 day event at a reasonable price.  Then just limit the # of qualifiers and space everything out and it should work.  Heck we used to all cram in Tech (yeah it sucked I know) back in the day so I would think we could find someplace.  Right now only a handful or two of entries were in some brackets last year so I'm all for finding a way to increase numbers in those weight classes.  Inturn the  section qualification would also slightly decrease some of the largest brackets that seem to hold up speed of the tournment.  So it seem like it could lower money in one instance but make some more in another (especially if the section events also sent money to the state).   Maybe making it a little more exclusive/presigious would encourage more participation at the section which should have decent participation based on a closer location.  Then by qualifying for state and feeling more exclusive/prestigious more may decide to travel to state at cetain wieght classes that have been way down in recent years.

 

Agreed the book could be much more of a bare bones version of the information with reference to an online link.  The online "web-booklet" could really be a highlight of the ISWA website and feature several articles that spotlight all the stories and information from the previous year that get crammed into the super booklet that seems to be breaking at hte seams each year.  Or make one  copy of the super-booklet (though that will still cost some money) to send to each member club and then the wrestlers get a very small information packet with info about the club having a super-booklet to and also the online "web-booklet."

[Y2CJ41]

Minnesota has a great USAW organization.  I would also look into what they do.  I was just looking over their information for their Fargo teams and the only kids that are guaranteed spots are the state champions, returning AA's and regional place winners.  The others go to camp and are chosen by a committee.

 

Here is a link to their website.

http://mnusa.wrestlingsystems.com/page/show/27510-home

[MattM]

Returning AA are at least a better solution for selecting member of a dual team than basing it off of a previous years state champ, previous national qualifier, or previous dual team members.  I say that because factors like your previous age group, your old weight class, and participation at your wieght could have played a factor in you being just a state champ or being asked to bein on a the national team becuase of state placement.  That system would also perpetuate the same kids getting first dibs much of the time even if that kid did not preform well in that years new age group or weight.  However, reaching AA status show you are probably more at the elite level nationally reguardless of the age group you did it in the previous year.  It also give kids something to shoot for if they know that being an AA that year at Fargo puts them inline to be asked to be on the dual team next year as well.  But again if we don't move back the state competition the fairest solution is still the top state places get first dibs even though it may not always be the best solution.  

[TripleB]

State doesn't have full brackets now, this year numbers were way down. A sectional right now would be a waste of time.

 

Also I would guess that if hand picked teams started getting too political, then the masses would show up at the next ISWA meeting and demand change. I know that I would.

[AJ]

State doesn't have full brackets now, this year numbers were way down. A sectional right now would be a waste of time.

 

 

What do you consider a full bracket?  20? 30? 40?

[GrecoCoach]

Keep the ideas coming - Today is the last day, since the meeting is Saturday. 

 

The discussions are great!  For the most part, we already know what the problems are - We are looking for ideas on solutions!

 

I'm compiling a list of everyone's suggestions and taking it with me to the meeting.

REX - I'm not including any of yours since you already submitted it and will be there.

 

TAE - the next time you tell someone to "just come to a meeting" I'm going to pull on your white beard!  This thread is an opportunity for them to give ideas (good, bad, and everywhere in between). 

 

 

[MattM]

I personally would like to see at least more than 12 in most weights at state, especially at the middle school and high school age divisions.   On the other side of things although the super larger number at some weights are great to see participation wise it does make for a long slow day.  

 

 

 

I actually like the "section" possibility if done well so I'll try to summarize it to see if I got it right based on what I and others have said.  I've said some of this a few times already but this is a more structured approach someone could use to break down the pro's and con's of it better.

 

The idea of a "section" qualification has worked in the past but was removed because it was eventually deemed pointless based on the participation at the time.  However, because of increased local participation it could work though the state qualification from each section should probably be a lower number than it previously was.

 

The idea of going back to "sections" would at least put a big event events closer to home.  Calling it more important event than a regular one would draw decent participation from that "section" in most areas.

 

Then by limiting who and how many from the "section" will qualify for state just quaifying becomes more important (like the IHSAA series).  If only say 20 something kids in state qualify for state  then you feel like part of a elite group if you did.  Qualifying then becomes a big deal to wrestlers than in years past ensuring the "sections" have good participation.  

 

Most of those parents and kids (especially the distant ones), because the bigger qualifying honor may be more inclined to actually go to state too.   This would inturn raise the participation at wieghts which on many occasions have been low in numbers.   At the same time the section would lower the participation in the largest brackets that seem to take up much of event and particpants time.  Quality of wrestling also improves at the state level by eliminating some of the less talented wrestlers at the "section" level.  

 

To ensure money is still generated the ISWA could collecting a small fees at the multiple "sections," as well as, the regular fee the state event.

 

Possibly having a defined limit on participants per weight class could help with organize the two day event in a more structured and functioning way.  This either helps the Fair Grounds run smoother thus attracting more qualifiers to want to go.  Or by being better plans could time and room needed leading to possibly moving the event to a slightly smaller and more cost effective venue (not sure on Fair cost).   If not large participation still prevent a venue move at least the event is more streamline and by adding a "section" week only hurts one week of event which could then move to another week during the season.  

 

A different venue could then mean a few week extention to the freestyle/greco season.  This would allow for more learning and participation oppertunities for wrestlers in freestyle and greco.  It would also allow for one or two more week of local events to take palce before the "section" event and finally state.

 

However, a push back in the individual state event would effect how we pick the National Duals that must be figured out by early May.  A criteria system of some kind, preferably based off of some achievement in that style, seems the best way to at least narrow down those possible candidates to pick the best team from.    

 

To combate the problem of kids jumping to a new section to ensure they qualify we would need to work on a better structure of identifying who belongs to what "section."   This would need to be done both when a person registers and also when they sign up for local event so that the qualifying information could be collated to the right sections.  Have clubs and events monitor the card sign up closer and clearly identify what section the kids belongs to would be the first step.   Maybe a different type of makring or sticker to be placed on the card to identify the "section" would help for quicker identification.  Have a better stucture for sending event place winner information in so the kids can be added to the 'section" qualification list is also needed.  A online entry system of some sort  would be great but maybe costly.  Some problems will still occur and some kids will still try to cheat the system but that occurs in the current system too. However, for a section to work right a good documentation and organization system has to be in place so it will be at least as good as the current system.  

 

We also need to evaluate the ISWA folkstyle season and its impact on any freestyle/greco system we have.  Is the folkstyle season hurting the freestyle/grecos ability to attract interest?  Should we emphasis the folkstyle season as much or even more and be OK with a slight freestyle/greco decline?  Should we offer any folkstyle events at all during the freestyle/greco season?  Should the folkstyle season be shortened and/or should the cadets/junior be cut from it?  Should the folkstyle season be moved to a different time so its not an option during the spring?  Should  folkstyle be offered at all?

 

We may also want to study and evaluate the stucture of other states organizations, how they improve qrestling quality, how they improve wrestling participation, how they run state events, and how they pick and run national teams.  States with a long history of sucess need to be studies since they have done something that has worked for years.  State that have had a very recent and fast rise in wrestling status should be studies since they must be doing something new that works well for them.

 

OK that a much better, though very lengthy and probably grammer error filled description.  Sorry for repeating of many of my previous point an additional time this combines everything from me and others.  It should give a good start for someone that can then fine tune, evaluate, and giving possible pro's and con's about.  

[Infolady]

In regard to the publication, "the book", let me say that, since it is my responsibility, I would love it if there was no longer a need for it. However, each wrestler receives one as a benefit of their membership and the feedback I receive from kids and parents is that they love it.  Also, I have found that you can not count on at leat 50% of our clubs to pass along information to the kids. I know the money could be used to send our elite wrestlers to duals and Fargo but I am not in favor of taking something away from the kids in order to make that happen.

 

In regrard to the team selection process: A selection committee may work in Minnesota but back when Indiana had a team qualifier and then a selection meeting to fill the spots, I personally witnessed two coaches almost come to blows, and had to be seperated, over who should be selected for Team Indiana. I won't name the coaches but if I did everyone would be extremely familiar with the names.