What I See As Benefit To Class Wrestling

[1oldwrestler]

The class wrestling discussions on this site have tended to focus on what benefit it will bring to small schools and not what it will bring to large schools.  It will take a few years to shake out, but, IMO, class wrestling will elevate the larger schools because, in the post season, they'll only be competing against schools of similar size which will elevate the level of competition and create better champs and placers, thus giving them a better opportunity to compete at the natl level in D1.  I don't know the numbers but I'd imagine that the number of D1 wrestlers competing at Nationals come from large school classes.  There are exceptions to be sure but to bolster my thoughts, look at the 4 time small school champ, LeClere at Iowa.  He's not even wrestling varsity.  The first 4 time champ in Illinois was a small school kid (Mark Ruetiger) and he was never heard from again after h.s.  Again, there will be small school kids that do well at the natl level (Howe doesn't make it into the discussion here because IN is classless) but they are the exception.

 

I agree that the benefit to class wrestling for small schools is that more kids will wrestle in college (smaller programs) because their success will provide them that opportunity and they will come back to IN and populate the coahing ranks.  Basically class wrestling all works hand in hand:  Big schools will give IN noteriety at the D1 level and small schools will provide great wrestling coaches back at the h.s.'s in IN.  I'm not trying to start a big argument with this post, just some rambling thoughts that might spark a civil discussion.

[Guest KoKo B-Ware]

I see class as ok if it is only for TEAM state...not individual.

It wouldn't be helpful at all unless it was just TEAM state.

[KarlHungus]

I see class as ok if it is only for TEAM state...not individual.

It wouldn't be helpful at all unless it was just TEAM state.

 

1oldwrestler seems to have a well thought out reason why it might be a benefit.  Do you have equally solid reasons why it would not?

[bigfan2001]

The class wrestling discussions on this site have tended to focus on what benefit it will bring to small schools and not what it will bring to large schools.  It will take a few years to shake out, but, IMO, class wrestling will elevate the larger schools because, in the post season, they'll only be competing against schools of similar size which will elevate the level of competition and create better champs and placers, thus giving them a better opportunity to compete at the natl level in D1. 

 

How does limiting the pool of competitors elevate the level of competition? :

[KarlHungus]

His answer was in the quote you posted.

[ENoblewrestling]

I coach at a small school, and this is my first year but I have not seen any problem with my wrestlers being recruited.  Of my group of 4 seniors each were looked at by D2 and D3 schools, and of them only made it to state.  This is the part that confuses me about the class wrestling argument.  I mean are we trying to fool the colleges into thinking that the wrestlers at the small schools are better than they are?  Dont you guys think that a college coach will be able to pick through who is ligit, and who isn't? On that same token if the big schools are so superior to the small schools that we need to class the  competition to have the wrestlers compete wouldn't a college coach just go after a wrestler who placed in the "big" tournament.  I dont see how placing in a inferior tournament would help small school wrestlers to get looked at by colleges, they are the same wrestlers that we had before just with "trumped" up statistics.

[AJ]

I would like to disagree with the principal of the argument made by 1oldwrestler, not his logic.

 

I do not believe that class wrestling is this special potion that will make Indiana a better wrestling state in a few years.  I believe that class wrestling may be on the list of things to possible improve a state, but it would be more towards the bottom in my opinion.  Youth level wrestling and club wrestling is key to the improvement of wrestling in the state of Indiana.  This is the same for all sports.  Class wrestling only will not make wrestlers any better.  Better wrestling and wrestlers are created at the younger divisions and ages, and then really blossom in high school (and there are exceptions to this).  

 

Another item I believe that I would place before class wrestling would be the refiguring of weight classes.  It is known that I am against eliminating the 103 weight class, but that is against the argument that it is only for underclassmen and it is forfeited slighlty more than 112.  I do believe that refiguring the weight classes and lower the weight classes to 12 or 10 would have a positive impact.  We live in a society were everyone believes they are entitled to something.  This has even crept into the world of wrestling.  Many wrestlers think it is a negative thing to wrestle JV.  Eliminating a few weight classes would raise the competition level in the room, and hopefully help to curb the entitled attitude and the negative attitude towards jv.  The raise in competition in the room will be a benefit for all. Might their be drawbacks to this, I am sure there will be, and is it really possible we could do this, I am sure the answer is no.

 

I am in favor of team state.  I think showcasing te small schools at the team event would place a lot of focus on their entire team and their entire community.  This would be a very positive experience for their wrestling program.  I do not believe the same thing would occur in the individual tournament.  The excitement may be high, but not near as high when the town is behind an ENTIRE team.  The team concept is harder to push to the 3rd or 4th page of the paper.

 

 

 

Do I think class wrestling has some benefits, yes I do.  I just do not think that class wrestling is the answer right now.  It may be in 5 years, but just not right now.

[bigfan2001]

I coach at a small school, and this is my first year but I have not seen any problem with my wrestlers being recruited.  Of my group of 4 seniors each were looked at by D2 and D3 schools, and of them only made it to state.  This is the part that confuses me about the class wrestling argument.  I mean are we trying to fool the colleges into thinking that the wrestlers at the small schools are better than they are?  Dont you guys think that a college coach will be able to pick through who is ligit, and who isn't? On that same token if the big schools are so superior to the small schools that we need to class the  competition to have the wrestlers compete wouldn't a college coach just go after a wrestler who placed in the "big" tournament.  I dont see how placing in a inferior tournament would help small school wrestlers to get looked at by colleges, they are the same wrestlers that we had before just with "trumped" up statistics.

 

GREAT POST!!  I AGREE 100 %

[Y2CJ41]

Here is some cool data that someone on TheMat compliled.  Its a list of the number of wrestlers on DI rosters by state.  I added the number of high school programs in that state and its sorted by the percentage of wrestlers on DI teams per high school teams in that state.  Indiana doesn't look so hot when we are sitting in 28th place(really 27th because I don't count Mississippi).

 

                  Num Wrestlers Num Programs Num Wrestlers per HS Program

1 Mississippi 1 1 100.00%

2 Pennsylvania 343 485 70.72%

3 New Jersey 205 326 62.88%

4 Delaware 22 39 56.41%

5 Virginia 98 249 39.36%

6 Ohio 189 529 35.73%

7 New York 158 462 34.20%

8 Maryland 59 173 34.10%

9 Illinois 127 407 31.20%

10 North Carolina 82 296 27.70%

11 New Hampshire 10 37 27.03%

12 Iowa 80 302 26.49%

13 Alaska 18 68 26.47%

14 California 189 728 25.96%

15 Oklahoma 33 140 23.57%

16 Michigan 100 467 21.41%

17 Wyoming 10 47 21.28%

18 West Virginia 17 80 21.25%

19 Missouri 43 210 20.48%

20 Colorado 46 230 20.00%

21 Idaho 19 98 19.39%

22 Utah 18 96 18.75%

23 Tennessee 25 141 17.73%

24 South Dakota 17 98 17.35%

25 Oregon 34 200 17.00%

26 North Dakota 12 71 16.90%

27 Montana 14 86 16.28%

28 Indiana 50 308 16.23%

29 Washington 43 273 15.75%

30 Florida 59 381 15.49%

31 Arizona 27 176 15.34%

32 Georgia 43 283 15.19%

33 Rhode Island 5 34 14.71%

34 Minnesota 49 351 13.96%

35 Kansas 27 195 13.85%

36 Texas 27 209 12.92%

37 Louisiana 9 73 12.33%

38 Connecticut 15 124 12.10%

39 Massachusets 18 151 11.92%

40 Nevada 9 78 11.54%

41 Wisconsin 32 344 9.30%

42 Hawaii 5 56 8.93%

43 Maine 5 64 7.81%

44 New Mexico 4 52 7.69%

45 South Carolina 8 121 6.61%

46 Nebraska 12 242 4.96%

47 Vermont 1 22 4.55%

48 Kentucky 3 75 4.00%

49 Alabama 3 80 3.75%

 

[Y2CJ41]

This is the breakdown by state of wrestlers on DI rosters.  Notice states like North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland and Florida are ahead of us when I would contend that we are at worst EQUAL to those states.

 

State Num Wrestlers

1 Pennsylvania 343

2 New Jersey 205

3 Ohio 189

4 California 189

5 New York 158

6 Illinois 127

7 Michigan 100

8 Virginia 98

9 North Carolina 82

10 Iowa 80

11 Maryland 59

12 Florida 59

13 Indiana 50

14 Minnesota 49

15 Colorado 46

16 Missouri 43

17 Washington 43

18 Georgia 43

19 Oregon 34

20 Oklahoma 33

21 Wisconsin 32

22 Arizona 27

23 Kansas 27

24 Texas 27

25 Tennessee 25

26 Delaware 22

27 Idaho 19

28 Alaska 18

29 Utah 18

30 Massachusets 18

31 West Virginia 17

32 South Dakota 17

33 Connecticut 15

34 Montana 14

35 North Dakota 12

36 Nebraska 12

37 New Hampshire 10

38 Wyoming 10

39 Louisiana 9

40 Nevada 9

41 South Carolina 8

42 Rhode Island 5

43 Hawaii 5

44 Maine 5

45 New Mexico 4

46 Kentucky 3

47 Alabama 3

48 Mississippi 1

49 Vermont 1

 

[Y2CJ41]

I coach at a small school, and this is my first year but I have not seen any problem with my wrestlers being recruited.  Of my group of 4 seniors each were looked at by D2 and D3 schools, and of them only made it to state.  This is the part that confuses me about the class wrestling argument.  I mean are we trying to fool the colleges into thinking that the wrestlers at the small schools are better than they are?  Dont you guys think that a college coach will be able to pick through who is ligit, and who isn't? On that same token if the big schools are so superior to the small schools that we need to class the  competition to have the wrestlers compete wouldn't a college coach just go after a wrestler who placed in the "big" tournament.  I dont see how placing in a inferior tournament would help small school wrestlers to get looked at by colleges, they are the same wrestlers that we had before just with "trumped" up statistics.

We had a kid that never made it past sectional that was "being recruited" by a smaller school.  Yet, we have had state placers and qualifiers not get a sniff from any school(DI, DII, DIII, etc)  other than a complimentary letter sent to every kid that places or qualifies for state.  The difference is the one kid filled out a questionnaire from the school.

[KarlHungus]

 

I coach at a small school, and this is my first year but I have not seen any problem with my wrestlers being recruited. Of my group of 4 seniors each were looked at by D2 and D3 schools, and of them only made it to state. This is the part that confuses me about the class wrestling argument. I mean are we trying to fool the colleges into thinking that the wrestlers at the small schools are better than they are? Dont you guys think that a college coach will be able to pick through who is ligit, and who isn't? On that same token if the big schools are so superior to the small schools that we need to class the competition to have the wrestlers compete wouldn't a college coach just go after a wrestler who placed in the "big" tournament. I dont see how placing in a inferior tournament would help small school wrestlers to get looked at by colleges, they are the same wrestlers that we had before just with "trumped" up statistics.

 

The key is exposure to college coaches earlier in their high school careers. I think the college coach would recruit both kids the big school placer and small school kid. More opportunities for both the colleges and high school kids.

[1oldwrestler]

Y2,

 

It would be interesting to see from your stats what % of kids that populate D1 (that come from classed states) are from the large schools.

[KarlHungus]

as would the number of kids that wrestle DII or III

[ENoblewrestling]

I agree that there would be an oppurtunity for some to be seen at a classed state, but cant these same kids currently be seen at our semi-states?  I know at Fort Wayne there were several college coaches there.  And if the arguement here is something along the lines that some kids from small schools dont make it to semi-state in our current system, wouldn't these same kids really not be college level wrestlers?  I mean if you cant make it to our current semi-state where kids do get noticed then what chances at success do you really have at the college level?

[Greco1982]

I see class as ok if it is only for TEAM state...not individual.

It wouldn't be helpful at all unless it was just TEAM state.

 

How big the school is has no effect on the quality of the wrestler. If a wrestler from a school with 200 students wins state does that make him less of a wrestler than someone that wins state from a school with 2000 students?NO it still goes back to the best wrestler in the state.

 

I agree that maybe there should be a team state version.

[Y2CJ41]

I agree that there would be an oppurtunity for some to be seen at a classed state, but cant these same kids currently be seen at our semi-states?  I know at Fort Wayne there were several college coaches there.  And if the arguement here is something along the lines that some kids from small schools dont make it to semi-state in our current system, wouldn't these same kids really not be college level wrestlers?  I mean if you cant make it to our current semi-state were kids do get noticed then what chances at success do you really have at the college level?

How many college coaches from out of state were at the Fort Wayne semi-state or any semi-state for that matter?  I would expect to see schools like Trine and Manchester at semi-state especially one within a half hour drive for them.  Even if Trine and Manchester's coaches were at Fort Wayne, that means they weren't at Evansville, New Castle or Merrillville.

[KarlHungus]

I agree that there would be an oppurtunity for some to be seen at a classed state, but cant these same kids currently be seen at our semi-states?  I know at Fort Wayne there were several college coaches there.  And if the arguement here is something along the lines that some kids from small schools dont make it to semi-state in our current system, wouldn't these same kids really not be college level wrestlers?  I mean if you cant make it to our current semi-state where kids do get noticed then what chances at success do you really have at the college level?

 

I'm guessing college coaches have limited Saturdays in which they are able to recruit.  Is the coach from Rose-Hulman or Wabash going to come to Ft. Wayne to recruit kids?

[Regionrat1]

Classes for Team Dual Meet/ Leave the indivdual alone/ The fact earlier about North Carolina having more D1 programs than Indiana tugs on the ole RATS HEART !

 

The amount of classes in some states is ridcules. Wisc. with 3 - it is tougher to win a Marion County tournament than a wisc. tittle. I think Virginia has 5 classes. Being a California champ is the real deal.

 

 

[ENoblewrestling]

Im not sure, but Im pretty confident that most of these staffs have at least four coaches who they could send to the different semi-states.  I will agree on your point about out of state coaches, but for the most part are D2 and D3 sports and there programs not extremely regional in who they recruit anyhow?  I mean dont the atheletes who play sports at say manchester generall come from Northeast and North Central Indiana?  Other than the top ten D2 or 3 programs I'd bet that about 80% of the schools atheletes are from the same general area as the school. 

[KarlHungus]

Im not sure, but Im pretty confident that most of these staffs have at least four coaches who they could send to the different semi-states.  I will agree on your point about out of state coaches, but for the most part are D2 and D3 sports and there programs not extremely regional in who they recruit anyhow?  I mean dont the atheletes who play sports at say manchester generall come from Northeast and North Central Indiana?  Other than the top ten D2 or 3 programs I'd bet that about 80% of the schools atheletes are from the same general area as the school. 

 

I've seen the same Trine coach and the same Manchester coach at a few events.  I don't think they are able to get out and recruit like you think they can.  I'm guessing that colleges would welcome the opportunity to recruit a from a wider geographical base.

[KarlHungus]

3 of the 4 DIII staffs in Indiana have 2 coaches.  Wabash has 4.

[pantherfamily]

Off the subject but, I saw the Manchester coach at ISWA State this past weekend.

[bbulldog152]

This is the breakdown by state of wrestlers on DI rosters.  Notice states like North Carolina, Virginia, Maryland and Florida are ahead of us when I would contend that we are at worst EQUAL to those states.

 

State Num Wrestlers

1 Pennsylvania 343

2 New Jersey 205

3 Ohio 189

4 California 189

5 New York 158

6 Illinois 127

7 Michigan 100

8 Virginia 98

9 North Carolina 82

10 Iowa 80

11 Maryland 59

12 Florida 59

13 Indiana 50

14 Minnesota 49

15 Colorado 46

16 Missouri 43

17 Washington 43

18 Georgia 43

19 Oregon 34

20 Oklahoma 33

21 Wisconsin 32

22 Arizona 27

23 Kansas 27

24 Texas 27

25 Tennessee 25

26 Delaware 22

27 Idaho 19

28 Alaska 18

29 Utah 18

30 Massachusets 18

31 West Virginia 17

32 South Dakota 17

33 Connecticut 15

34 Montana 14

35 North Dakota 12

36 Nebraska 12

37 New Hampshire 10

38 Wyoming 10

39 Louisiana 9

40 Nevada 9

41 South Carolina 8

42 Rhode Island 5

43 Hawaii 5

44 Maine 5

45 New Mexico 4

46 Kentucky 3

47 Alabama 3

48 Mississippi 1

49 Vermont 1

 

 

I don't know how to explain Fla. having more than us but NC and Virginia is because the have more D 1 Schools in their states than Indiana's 2 right off the top of my head NC has 4 maybe 5 D 1 teams so they have an advantage of getting more D1 Wrestlers. I bet if ND, Ball state and ISU had teams Indiana's numbers were rise. I Know Fla send almost all of there top wrestlers to national tourneys. Thats what helps them out. so what Indiana has to do is get more college teams which is out of our hands and we need every wrestler that is eligable for national tourneys to go to them. I know we always have sr. that are eligable for sr. nationals that don't go.

[tspray1]

RegionRat to say Wisconsin wrestling is weak and it would be tougher to win Marion county tournament than a Wisconsin title is a falsehood.  Tell that to Garrett Lowney or Cole Konrad or Ben and Max Askren, or how about Craig Henning.  Just 5 of teh Wisconsin kids that have wrestled in the finals of the NCAA over the last few years.  More importantly how about Dennis Hall, Jim Gruenwald and kieth Sieracki.

 

Now I will say this in greco they own us, in folkstyle the shoe might be on the other foot.