Jump to content

Class Wrestling?????


devildog47959

Recommended Posts

The first part of your statment is quite patronizing to small school athletes.  I would hope you don't think the smaller schools that win state titles in other sports aren't merely getting "participation awards" or "lucky duck" awards because they go to a smaller school.

 

I'm not trying to patronize the small school athletes.  But one of the main arguments for having class wrestling is because 75% of state qualifiers are from big schools.  Small schools obviously want more state qualifiers.  The quickest solution for this is to have a class system, thus "lucky duck" awards as you say.

 

Would not more wrestlers attending college to wrestle and then returning home to give back improve the product?

 

Yes, but just simply expanding the State Finals would have the same effect as having a class system (which is another way of expansion).

 

And Y2, yes I know the absurdity of that comment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 712
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

There is no place for class free-bee medals in any individual sport.  Be it wrestling, swimming, tennis, golf, cross county, track or whatever uses individual scores to make a team.  Anytime an idividual can move forward in state competition without the rest of the team, then there should only be ONE true State Champion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

if enrllment doesn't matter why are 75% of the state qualifiers the past 11 years from big schools?

 

My guess is that it's because approximately 75% of the male students go to "big schools". 

 

I think the data you have put together and presented here previously has shown this to be the case.   

But exactly half of the chances to go to state are with the bigger schools and half are with the smaller schools.  Bigger schools do not get to send 20 kids to sectional, they send 14 just like a small school.

 

If qualifying for state was determined by flipping a coin, then small schools should have the same number of qualifiers.  But qualifying for state is determined, in large part, by a person's ability as a wrestler.  Based on statistics alone, big schools are more likely to have more wrestlers that have the necessary ability as a wrestler to qualify for state simply because big schools have more people.  

 

For instance a typical big school may have 3-4 state caliber wrestlers while a typical small school may have 0-1.  This would make sense because big schools have a more students and therefore are more likely to have more state-caliber athletes.  This may be a good argument for why the team tournament should be classed, but it doesn't affect the individual tournament.  In the end, for the individual tournament why does it matter what school a person comes from?

 

Also, under the logic that it's unfair that more state qualifiers come from big schools, it's also unfair that more state placers have come from the Merrillville semi-state in recent years.  The Fort Wayne semi-state has the same number of chances for state placers as Merrillville.  Should we have a classed system based on geography?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well......Class or no class, we need to shake things up some....blind draw new sectional assignments every year.....so every once in a while you get a better chance for your team to advance.....2 Sectionals feed into 1 regional....take all of the schools from two near by regional's, that?s 4 sectionals.....throw all the teams from those 4 sectionals in a hat, draw out 8-10 teams for sectional 1, 8-10 for sectional 2, so on and so on.....then the same 4 regional?s feed back into the same semi state, and we continue the way it is, individually.

 

As a team, you may get stuck with some great teams in the same sectional, but you might get the first opportunity to win a team sectional.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How then do we make it fair for the big school kids that are the second or 3rd guy in the weight class and can't break the varsity lineup.  Do we implement a JV state tournament to make it fair for those kids?

 

I say we go with the NAIA wrestling rules and each team is aloud to send their top 20 wrestlers to sectionals... oh wait that argues for class wrestling... scratch that

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 I am not a fan of class sports, but.

 

I would have no problem with a team tourney in the class format, but I like the all in one individule tourney.

 

I mean we do break out weight classes for 14 different classes, so if we went to 2-3 classes for the team event, that would be ok.

The question you have to ask yourself is "what do we have high school athletics for?"  Is it to find "one true champion" or is it some other reason?

 

As in everything it is to find the best. As an individule, that means taking on all comers. As a team, there does have to be certain consessions made to the fact that larger schools should have better over all teams. It does take having more quality practice partners, people to step in when the varsity guy gets hurt and so on to make a great team. However an individule can and often has in this state taken it upon himself to say that nothing is going to stop him, and he is going to win state. That does not matter what size school you come from.

 

Let me ask something here, who would be put on an all time best team from the state? I am guessing a few from EMD, and I know of atleast one from Hanover Central, both of those schools would be in the lower class if we had a 2-3 class system.

So why do we need wrestle-backs if we only should be worried about the champion?  Your sole goal is to find a "true champion" why should we even give out medals to those non-champions?

 

Would we not know that Howe was the best in Indiana?  Didn't he wrestle Cooper Samuels at Freestyle state a couple years ago?  The same goes for the likes of Coughlin or Maurer.   We would know they are the best because of their accomplishments wrestling other top competitors during the season and out of the season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

if enrllment doesn't matter why are 75% of the state qualifiers the past 11 years from big schools?

 

My guess is that it's because approximately 75% of the male students go to "big schools". 

 

I think the data you have put together and presented here previously has shown this to be the case.   

But exactly half of the chances to go to state are with the bigger schools and half are with the smaller schools.  Bigger schools do not get to send 20 kids to sectional, they send 14 just like a small school.

 

If qualifying for state was determined by flipping a coin, then small schools should have the same number of qualifiers.  But qualifying for state is determined, in large part, by a person's ability as a wrestler.  Based on statistics alone, big schools are more likely to have more wrestlers that have the necessary ability as a wrestler to qualify for state simply because big schools have more people.  

 

For instance a typical big school may have 3-4 state caliber wrestlers while a typical small school may have 0-1.  This would make sense because big schools have a more students and therefore are more likely to have more state-caliber athletes.  This may be a good argument for why the team tournament should be classed, but it doesn't affect the individual tournament.  In the end, for the individual tournament why does it matter what school a person comes from?

 

Also, under the logic that it's unfair that more state qualifiers come from big schools, it's also unfair that more state placers have come from the Merrillville semi-state in recent years.  The Fort Wayne semi-state has the same number of chances for state placers as Merrillville.  Should we have a classed system based on geography?

 

School size is only one advantage, what about better facilities, more paid coaches, less multi-sport athletes, more money for travel to better competition, etc. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Y2, why do you want a class system? Is it because most other states do it? You want more state qualifiers/champions from the smaller schools? What are you're reasons?

 

I know you addressed Y2 but I would like to see class wrestling because I think it would improve programs at small schools if they had a legitimate chance at advancing in a state series.

 

The basketball team at the school I coach was barely over .500 and won a sectional title. The school and community support was incredible when they went to regionals. This year the program has a freshman squad for the first time in 10 years and the youth numbers are at an all time high.

 

I was also on a wrestling staff (all three of us, one volunteer) of a team that went 20-1 in duals and lost to state semi-finalist by 12 points. The next year we had 10-12 fewer wrestlers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My reason is to grow the sport at the small school level.  I feel that small schools getting 75% more state qualifiers will help grow the sport at that level.  I believe that if we would have more kids participating in the sport its good for everyone and class wrestling would help get more kids out for the sport across the board.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the biggest things we battle is the number of 3 sport athletes.  A great point was made earlier about kids working hard  in the off season to get better (small or big school).  Small school kids can compete individually with Big school kids, nobody is doubting that.  When you have kids playing baseball, running track, soccer, or golf its hard to pick up those extra matches in the summer, which tends to affect the smaller schools a little bit more.  Not that Big schools don't have to battle 3 sport athletes, I would just assume it wouldn't be the same percentage.

 

I would love to hear from the side of a big school....do you guys have this problem alot?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the biggest things we battle is the number of 3 sport athletes.  A great point was made earlier about kids working hard  in the off season to get better (small or big school).  Small school kids can compete individually with Big school kids, nobody is doubting that.  When you have kids playing baseball, running track, soccer, or golf its hard to pick up those extra matches in the summer, which tends to affect the smaller schools a little bit more.  Not that Big schools don't have to battle 3 sport athletes, I would just assume it wouldn't be the same percentage.

 

I would love to hear from the side of a big school....do you guys have this problem alot?

 

 

Not to mention spending your summers trying to juggle the demands of 3 different coaches and trying to be a teenager too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the biggest things we battle is the number of 3 sport athletes.  A great point was made earlier about kids working hard  in the off season to get better (small or big school).  Small school kids can compete individually with Big school kids, nobody is doubting that.  When you have kids playing baseball, running track, soccer, or golf its hard to pick up those extra matches in the summer, which tends to affect the smaller schools a little bit more.  Not that Big schools don't have to battle 3 sport athletes, I would just assume it wouldn't be the same percentage.

 

I would love to hear from the side of a big school....do you guys have this problem alot?

 

That's a view I wondered about.....we have (For Boys): Tennis, Football, Cross Country, Soccer, Basketball, Swimming, Wrestling, Golf, Track, Baseball.....and for all of these sports to have any success, our kids have to do at least 2 or most of them do 3!  Participating in 3 sports takes up alot of time, and takes away from alot of mat time.....sure we have wrestlers in the room to make them a better football player.....and so on.....we take who we can get!  

 

We are only an Class A school.  If we were a Class 5A, lets say, there would be more wrestlers who would do nothing but wrestle....I would think, unless they are one of those freaks of nature (like me) that can be the top dog in any and every sport!  

 

In big schools, I can't see the Football coach, or swim coach trying to recruit kids away from other sports in the same school..............It's a dog fight here, we are always trying to recruit the basketball kids, swim kids, or who ever we can find!  

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the biggest things we battle is the number of 3 sport athletes.  A great point was made earlier about kids working hard  in the off season to get better (small or big school).  Small school kids can compete individually with Big school kids, nobody is doubting that.  When you have kids playing baseball, running track, soccer, or golf its hard to pick up those extra matches in the summer, which tends to affect the smaller schools a little bit more.  Not that Big schools don't have to battle 3 sport athletes, I would just assume it wouldn't be the same percentage.

 

I would love to hear from the side of a big school....do you guys have this problem alot?

 

See this argument seems reasonable but you know many kids like doing 2 to three sports. I went to Castle (5A) and i was able to played football and wrestled. Our football coach loved the wrestlers. He said we had great speed reaction and balance (Offensive Line) as weel our work ethic was great. Our coach even told players that they should wreslte if they wanted a legitimate shot and playing varsity. What happened? People came our and wrestled and became varsity starters the next year om the field even though they didnt break the varisty line up for wrestling.

 

Many people like playing many sports and it can keep them in shape and helps them from getting burnt-out on one sport. Caleb Schmitt was a state qualifier for wrestling multiple years and won state his senior year. Still played soccer all 4 years

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the biggest things we battle is the number of 3 sport athletes.  A great point was made earlier about kids working hard  in the off season to get better (small or big school).  Small school kids can compete individually with Big school kids, nobody is doubting that.  When you have kids playing baseball, running track, soccer, or golf its hard to pick up those extra matches in the summer, which tends to affect the smaller schools a little bit more.  Not that Big schools don't have to battle 3 sport athletes, I would just assume it wouldn't be the same percentage.

 

I would love to hear from the side of a big school....do you guys have this problem alot?

 

 

Here at Warren, we have a few kids from the football team, only one on varsity that I know of. and a few kids that were on jv for both, or freshmen. Once they begin to excel at football, there is some pressure to work on that alot more. We even had one kid that is a varsity wrestler get put in a room full of football players for a weight lifting class, and the coach was upset with him because he did not want to do the bulk building stuff his football players were doing. And this is from a football coach that came to us from the Evansville area, you would think he would have realized that in the middle of wrestling season, it might not be the best thing to be working on building bulk.

 

Most of the 2 sport athletes that we have are football/track. A few football/baseball. That is about it. I think at a small school, the pressure is different because you are a great athlete, and could help most any sport team you were on, so all the coaches are trying to get you to go out for their team, wheras at a large school, it seems to be the one coach that you are a star  for wants you all to himself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would be more inclined to believe that a class system would work if it wasn't for the fact that we are a top 15 (no worse than 20) state.  What are we doing better, as a single classed state, than the other 25 or so multi-classed states?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the biggest things we battle is the number of 3 sport athletes.  A great point was made earlier about kids working hard  in the off season to get better (small or big school).  Small school kids can compete individually with Big school kids, nobody is doubting that.  When you have kids playing baseball, running track, soccer, or golf its hard to pick up those extra matches in the summer, which tends to affect the smaller schools a little bit more.  Not that Big schools don't have to battle 3 sport athletes, I would just assume it wouldn't be the same percentage.

 

I would love to hear from the side of a big school....do you guys have this problem alot?

 

 

Here at Warren, we have a few kids from the football team, only one on varsity that I know of. and a few kids that were on jv for both, or freshmen. Once they begin to excel at football, there is some pressure to work on that alot more. We even had one kid that is a varsity wrestler get put in a room full of football players for a weight lifting class, and the coach was upset with him because he did not want to do the bulk building stuff his football players were doing. And this is from a football coach that came to us from the Evansville area, you would think he would have realized that in the middle of wrestling season, it might not be the best thing to be working on building bulk.

 

Most of the 2 sport athletes that we have are football/track. A few football/baseball. That is about it. I think at a small school, the pressure is different because you are a great athlete, and could help most any sport team you were on, so all the coaches are trying to get you to go out for their team, wheras at a large school, it seems to be the one coach that you are a star  for wants you all to himself.

 

I know that football coach and that seems odd that he wants people to not do bulk lifting. Though i know that when he was here his football players who wrestled were 189, 215, and HWT.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would be more inclined to believe that a class system would work if it wasn't for the fact that we are a top 15 (no worse than 20) state. What are we doing better, as a single classed state, than the other 25 or so multi-classed states?

We are in the middle of the wrestling belt and one of the worst states when you compare our neighbors, Illinois, Michigan, and Ohio. I hope we are better than the southern states as they don't have the college programs or history that the midwest does.

 

Even comparing states that are just outside that range, Pennsylvania, Iowa, Wisconsin, and Minnesota we are at best equal with Wisconsin and Minnesota, but the others are a notch ahead of us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The other thing here is we dont have to many kids on the football team that could be in any weight class under 171. So the spots are somewhat limited. Unlike some of the smaller schools that have quite a few kids from 140 and up playing football. That in itself is going to limit the number of kids. Anyone under that size here has already come to the conclusion that they will never see the field so they either quit sports, or gravitate to another sport. But since we are usually a fairly decent football team, and dreams die hard,  those kids stick with it through middle school and maybe their freshman year before they decide to stop trying to make the field. If they come out for wrestling we dont see them until their freshman, or sophmore year.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.