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dstruck last won the day on October 16 2017

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  1. Hoosier Hills Conference

    Done: Ordered for concessions and coaches
  2. Seeding Meeting Change???

    So wrestling a weaker schedule makes your record better. Regardless of forfeits or not. Correct. that was the same way before this rule, it’s the same after this rule. A kid with a tougher schedule may have more losses. That was the same before this rule. It’s the same after this rule. Forfeits dont show strength of schedule. If true, that is the same before and after this rule. Unethical people existed before this rule and exist after this rule This just stops some getting seeded higher due to having many forfeits as the reason. Yes coaches can dodge. But what about the kid that was never dodged, never was hurt, never missed a match. He was 15-15. That kid was getting out behind someone that was 15-13 with 5 forfeits. this rule simply says compare matches wrestled to matches wrestled not forfeits to forfeits or strength of forfeit or reason for forfeit no scenario will ever be perfect due to many many reasons- but this is better in 4 years of its changed back can you imagine what people used to the rule will say “can u believe this new rule wants to use forfeits to decide who is better”
  3. Seeding Meeting Change???

    Dustin wrote that while stocking up for snow-mania-Southern indiana 2018, by what he stocked for it, i can tell u he is Messing us! Galagore: I agree with you in this one. It’s been a good , healthy, conversation- learning a lot here on views I really didn’t see before hand- good work on keeping it all civil and discussing.
  4. Seeding Meeting Change???

    The rules were the same for all seeding meetings- whether rules were followed? That goes backs to the ethics and awareness of coaches and meet directors. we used it at ours too It was evident that people didn’t follow the rules last year so Mr Faulkens sent a reminder. Same rules as last year.
  5. Seeding Meeting Change???

    My belief: as long as their is wrestling there will be a need for all size schools in tourneys. Just look at the schools this year and even this week looking for another team to join their 6 way. They don’t care how big or small the school is, they want another team. even in some of the “big school” 6 ways you see 4 large schools and 2 smaller as they want a round that isn’t as intense (giving the kid a round off) or to make the day quicker. Next year two of your 6 weeknights can be rolled into one so two smaller schools and a big school can go together (at least that is the intent- what people make it to we can’t help) tournaments are a great way to ensure a smaller school gets included - example- jeff Classic, despite the forfeits I know kids get matches of all size schools- which is my intent in the size variance of schools invited. I believe others do the same i see where your coming from fellas. I just think and hope it won’t have the backlash perceived by some. I like it for now and look forward to seeing if it improves accurate seeding.
  6. Seeding Meeting Change???

    Joe- i agree how it could be seen that kids are at a disadvantage - but that isn’t my reality at least. Wrestling a tougher schedule will Still produce tougher wrestlers that despite a seed will march forward in the tourney. I believe the real intent of ethical coaches is put their kids up against tough or worthy competition to continually grow the wrestler. if someone weakens their schedule to manipulate this rule- it will bite them at some point- that kid with a great record (lots of wins, low forfeits, but lesser competition) won’t go as far. i think many people do their kids a disservice by getting their kids overseesed and the kid falling short and feel a failure. First, I’d love an accurate seed. But other than that i like when a kid overcomes their seed and feels good about themselves. I feel many kids got overseeded due to forfeits and left feeling real discouraged and just don’t understand that actual competition would have grown them.
  7. Seeding Meeting Change???

    Galagore- I agree with that- it would count and it does count in a dual meet. Just not when saying who the better teams is. Originally seeding meetings were were just plain- “hey guys who is better” and it was talked out. Rules were made for dishonesty , for those that had trouble compromising, and for flat out “we don’t know”. The intent of the seeding meeting is to have people try and come to a conclusion on who the best wrestler is. Not just a stat. Thus not using forfeits to compare individuals. so the forfeit still counts- for a win, for team points- for glory and honor- just not in a discussion of how good a wrestler is in my opinion of course This topic interests me more than most, as seen by my number of responses- as I really had no idea anyone would disagree with it.... I thought most would go “yeah, forfeits don’t show who is better” so it’s been interesting finding out that this isn’t the case. Interesting to see how many see forfeits as a measure of the wrestler.
  8. Seeding Meeting Change???

    I completely agree with that statement joe.
  9. Seeding Meeting Change???

    correct, most other sports dont use forfeits, as they think it is silly
  10. Seeding Meeting Change???

    forfeits do not tell you who the better wrestler is. I get the scare of the new, and how it might be perceived it could hurt someone. I completly respect the opinion, but hope that people will give it an open minded try, as I think there are more positives then negatives. The only reason rules are made in the first place is because someone was trying to manipulate something. The intent to hurt is not there. The likelihood of it helping more kids is definitely there. The possibility of a coach minipulating a rule to his advantage is always there - no matter what way it goes. Instead of talking and comparing the actual wins and losses, maybe we should discuss and compare the quality of forfeits? My forfeits are better than your forfeits? (just joking) In no other sport would you use a forfeit to seed someone, just think of the NCAA basketball tourney seeding based on games not actually played. "well, we didnt play duke, but could have, and didnt, so that is a win, seed me higher than them." It does come down to morals - people were dodging people before this rule came about - they will dodge kids with this rule and they will dodge kids without this rule. this rule has nothing to do with dodging. If a kid and coach want competition, they will seek competition. If they want to avoid, they will. Schools that actually sought out forfeits to make their record look better will remain - their record is their record. The larger schools will wrestle the smaller schools at the same rate they already do - cause forfeits won't count and now coaches will possibly actually want that match to happen. We can never stop people avoiding matches, we can never stop teams with tougher or weaker schedules. Although i wish all schools in Indiana were the exact same size - we can't control that either. But what we can do is compare actual wrestled matches to actual wrestled matches. Not an actual wrestled match to a ghost match. I can't speak for others, but I know ill keep schools I need for sectional seeding cause i want the actual head to head match wrestled. the forfeits in their lineup have nothing to do with us wanting the head to head competion. Ill keep inviting all sizes of school to jeff classic because I want to see our smaller schools have that platform. Ill keep doing battle of the bridge and including smaller schools because I want their kids to grow too and have opportunities too. We can't stop coaches that dont or wont seek competition. We can help comparing actual matches. if forfeits actually showed the strength of a wrestler, on the results page we should start writing - Freddie had 4 quality forfeits today in his tourney. (again just kidding) forfeits do not tell you who the better wrestler is.
  11. Seeding Meeting Change???

    Some people could dodge, that’s true. But the competitors bump to and seek out the best competition. Change scares people. Me included in many ways. But let’s say this rule was a long standing rule, and then someone came along and said “we are having trouble deciding who is better, let’s see who has the most forfeits and they obviously are better, give them the higher seed” - that wouldn’t make sense at all! Kids that gets forfeits in a dual....Those kids still get to say they won a dual meet for their team cause they got their hand raised for thr team Even in an individual tourney if they get their hand raised it counts for the team Even at sectionals if they get their hand raised in a forfeit it counts for the team Just when comparing athletes - wrestled matches are what counts. We aren’t taking away or punhsong a kid , just saying “hey, how did you do when you actually wrestled” Having forfeits when comparing wrestlers will not be what hurts small school wresting. There are so many other positive things we can do to pump wrestling rather than bank on hoping for forfeits to seed us. nothing is perfect, nor can it ever be. But comparing kids actual matches wrestled is a lot better then just seeing who got more forfeits and claiming they must be better.
  12. Seeding Meeting Change???

    No kid is being punished or rewarded. someone can cheat or lie or avoid kids no matter the rules no matter the situation You are comparing actual matches wrestled, to actual matches wrestled.
  13. Seeding Meeting Change???

    while not an officer of the coaches association for 4 years now, I do know where the rule came from: Head to head and common opponents still count - so if you have a losing record because your forfeits are gone, but you have a common or a head to head you still trump the person record - forfeits don't matter in that scenerio anyway. previously a kid that was 16-15 with ten forfeits, could be over a kid that was 14-15 with no forfeits. It didn't decide the better wrestler, but the person that didn't wrestle the most was assumed better. This rule was passed two years ago, and was in use last year (whether schools used it or not) Small schools and medium schools and large schools were in the meeting that changed the criteria. The purpose of the seeding meeting is to seperate the best wrestlers. The forfeit was taken out so that only actual wrestled matches seperate the wrestlers. Forfeits don't show who the better wrestler is. The purpose of the rule is to discourage forfeits - push to recruit, bump kids to wrestle actual matches instead of wrestling a dual where nobody matches up. despite opinion - the people in the room that made the rule had pushing wrestling actual matches as their goal
  14. Extra training Forbidden?

    fun topic here - like seeing all perspectives. I find it interesting when compared to how other states do things - you know in New Jersey the HS coach can not coach the athlete in the off season - they HAVE TO go to a club. Just different rules completely and I don't think we want a no contact rule. Much success when we compare our self to those states is simply a numbers game. Population of Indiana 6.6 million New Jersey 8.8 million Ohio 11.6 or so IL and PA - both 12.8+ million
  15. Jeffersonville Indiana - hosted by Parkview Middle School at Jeffersonville High School wrestle matches from 8am to 3pm MAXIMUM - but likely done with all round robins before then need 3 more officials email Parkview AD Josh Nall or call him jnall@gccschools.com Cell 812-207-6118 Parkview 812-288-4844 ext 222