Y2CJ41

Because I'm not proposing a massive change to the system only to spread the pain out differently. It's rather disheartening to me that your answer is (paraphrasing) "We've hurt small schools long enough, lets change things and hurt the large school for a change. Who's with me!!!!!" Instead, I think looking into different solutions, like many others in this thread have proposed, that are good for everyone is a much better solution. Not just doing whatever is best for one group.

It's rather disheartening that you want to continue to kill the sport at the small school level. What do you have against small schools? 

Jimtown does have a Hall-of-Fame wrestling coach and he hasn't left his tiny school.  

That's great, again he's not of the norm...in more ways that one!

Ok -- so you believe that class wrestling actually hurts large schools. Which leads me to my second (and more important) question. Why is it OK to hurt one group of athletes (large school wrestlers) in order to help a second group of athletes (small school wrestlers)? And does hurting one group in order to help another really mean that class wrestling "works?"

Aren't we hurting our small schools with our current system? Why is it fine to hinder our small schools so that our big schools can have success?

I'm not saying #2 and #3 are untrue. What I am saying is that they don't answer the question I asked. While they are both very good arguments for how class wrestling can help smaller schools, they don't answer, "Why do Kansas and Ohio (and now also Michigan) have LESS participation in wrestling at large schools than Indiana?" That is the question that I am interested in.

No it didn't fit what you wanted me to say.

Success breeds numbers and thus less forfeits. Big schools in Indiana have much more success than in other states because they are at a SEVERE advantage over the smaller schools. Prairie Heights has more kids on their roster than Fremont, Carroll has more than Homestead...one of the big reasons...SUCCESS.

The better coaches in Indiana are mostly at BIG schools, thus again they are going to have better numbers. In classed states the better coaches aren't enticed as much to move to schools that are bigger. For instance, if I was still at Garrett and we were winning 1A sectional and regional titles I would have been even less likely to jump to a school 3X bigger. The same reason Tonte, Harper, and many other coaches started at smaller schools and are not at bigger ones.

I searched last night and had a difficult time finding hard data facts. What I did find was that many articles talked about the growing number of forfeits and what they could do as a group to improve upon the numbers. Many of those ideas have been shared on this topic already. I am not sure what the answer is but it's not just an Indiana thing. Do you remember they wanted to remove wrestling from the Olympics? Seems like the problem maybe be bigger than you all seem to think!!

Many state tournaments are on TrackWrestling. That makes it VERY easy to compile data for specific states.

Forfeits are an issue everywhere, but for some odd reason the small schools in other states aren't doing as poorly as in Indiana. It's probably just dumb luck or stat manipulation though.

Data can be skewed as well to fit ones needs or ideas.

1. Maybe

 

2. This is a non-starter. All you have done is stated why our large schools have less FFs than our small schools. Kansas and Ohio large schools have just as much opportunity for team and individual success as ours, arguably more since they aren't competing against smaller schools that might actually have some studs and good teams. Yet -- they have more FFs at those larger schools than us.

 

3. Again -- this says nothing as to why, according to your data, class wrestling hurts large schools. It says why small schools might be more successful in a class system (they can keep a good coach) but says nothing as to why large schools would suffer in a class system.

Believe what you want, but #2 and 3 are true.

Big schools have more success and thus will have more kids out for the team. The sports that have the higher numbers are the ones with success. 75% of the state qualifiers are from big schools and on top of that 96 of 101 3A schools have had a state qualifier over the past 6 years while only 56 1A teams have had a state qualifier. I guarantee the teams in 1A with those state qualifiers have significantly more team members than the ones without one.

If coaches like Bud Wright and Bill Sharpe were in wrestling they would have left their tiny schools a long time ago for bigger pastures. As a coach you want to put yourself in a situation that is best for success. In wrestling in Indiana that formula almost ALWAYS includes the size of the school. Whether you want to believe it or not that is the truth.

 

Can we honestly believe that a team with less than 7 wrestlers can compete, as a team, in the 1A Team State, or even have a chance to qualify? Are we interested in putting together something that the IHSAA could adopt or are we interested in putting the best product on the mat?        

The powers that be speak out of both sides of their mouths when addressing this question.

They say NO when they want to seed the event and invite teams not based on geography aka 3 teams from each semi-state. Then they say YES, when they want the all-in format and teams with 2 or less athletes aren't counted.

Last year a team would need 5 RETURNING state champions and one other sectional participant to make the top 20 teams in 1A.

Couldn't they just adjust the cut number higher between 1A/2A to account for those schools with low participation.  This way those school are still included in the point scoring process, but it doesn't misrepresent/skew a fair cut off point between 1A and 2A.  I mentioned this in previous years as a possible easy fix to this argument.  In this all inclusive idea we should consider that some of these low entry schools (4 or 5 kids) could theoretically have enough incoming wrestlers the next season between new freshman and others join to fill well over half their line-up the next season. The is cut adjustment will let those schools still count without it effecting a more realistic split of the 1A and 2A classes.  

 

I'm not sure the same cut adjustment would need to then be made between 2A and 3A.  It may only need to be made at 1A to account for the effect of the low entry schools on the 1A cut off.  the 2A and 3A cut off may depend on if the committee feels the current cut is a fair representation of what size schools should be in each of those classes.   

They can count anyone they want, that's not an issue.

If they were to say that you need 7 or more wrestlers at sectional to qualify it would shift the cut-off lines for all three classes.

Maybe Indiana loses more athletes, especially at small school, to basketball than other states. Basketball is still extremely popular in Indiana.  I know it's probably popular in Kansas as well.  

 

Has the IHSWCA Team Championships helped numbers at 1A school like Triton? They've always been a good basketball program. Have these classed events helped their numbers? Or is their recent success (getting invited to the IHSWCA event) just been the exception with a couple of good classes?

Many small school coaches have said their teams are affected positively by IHSWCA team duals. I believe this is very good and shows on a smaller scale how much success can help a program. However, we are only affecting 10-15 teams out of 100 with this. If we were to go to classed individual tournament we would be able to affect a lot more teams.

Just as a heads up I added data from Michigan for last year to the original spreadsheet. Once again their small schools are doing better.

Kansas and Ohio also have worse participation in the sport of wrestling at large schools than Indiana. Why is that?

 

It appears to be your position based on this data that class wrestling directly impacts the number of FFs in small schools -- reducing that number. If you believe that, then you have to follow it all the way through. You would also have to believe that class wrestling directly impacts the number of FFs in large schools -- increasing that number. So, by your own logic, class wrestling helps small schools and hurts large schools. So, does class wrestling work -- if all you are doing is hurting one group to help another?

Why are Indiana's big schools doing better? There are a few reasons that I can think of

1. We have less inner-city schools. If we add in another 20 inner-city schools our big school forfeits would suffer. Obviously with Kansas this doesn't fly.

2. Big schools have success both individual and team success aka sectional and regional titles on the team side and state success on the individual side. When a team has success more kids want to be a part of it.

3. With class wrestling you don't see good coaches changing divisions to attain success as much. For instance I know Richmond in Michigan had a VERY successful coach that stayed at his school for like 30 years and retired there. The same thing you see in football where coaches like Bud Wright(Sheridan) and Bill Sharpe(Jimtown) have stayed at their smaller schools. In Indiana our better coaches flock to big schools because if you want to have success you are WAY better off at a big school.

Making duals more eventful is a great start.

I am not opposed to a uniform change, but anything tight fitting will still have the self conscious kid not wanting to come out for the sport. 

Which ones?

Make sure you are looking at SECTIONAL and not the regional ones I added yesterday

Ten full teams in 1A show that we should reconsider this "all-in" format and maybe limit it to teams with 7+ wrestlers.

Question on 220, how is McClaine ranked above Hipple? He lost to both Hipple and Kukurugya.

That is a mistake we will have to change that one sorry

It's fixed

Howe is wrestling for the Bronze medal in about 20 minutes

I'm not sure either are good comparisons. You fail to factor that Kansas by having 6 classes creates twice the opportunity for small school kids than a 3 class system would here in IN. Yet it's failed to have even a 1 forfeit per team difference, which doesn't suggest it would have a major impact on small schools here. Ohio is a different animal when it comes to wrestling, with tradition much more rooted. So you wouldn't expect our participation rates to be higher. I will concede the gap is a little wider than I expected, and it's possible early classing had some impact on building that tradition. (but I believe wrestling was pretty big there pre-class)

One of the main arguments of class wrestling is that "no one wants to wrestle for a tainted championship." This data shows that to be a false statement.

This is also showing how much success of big schools helps their numbers. More success helps increase the participation at those schools.

Posting an article about forfeits is no different than throwing out data from a couple of states. The sport of wrestling is struggling to field competitors period, anyone can see that. It's not just single classes wrestling states that are experiencing it, that's why I shared an article from arguably the state with the best wrestling in the nation.

Go find some data from other states to show me something else.  Do some work to prove that data to be wrong.

There u go Y2. Lol

Thanks for the insight,  you always add so much to this website.

Looks like the topic is being discussed in OH.

 

http://thecourier.com/opinion/columns/2016/01/26/column-trying-to-stem-the-decline/

 

The lack of participation is troubling, and it seems to be affecting several other sports. And Y2 as much as I'm in the class camp the numbers in other states don't reflect that classing would remedy the participation rates, particularly as it relates to small schools.

 

Dropping the singlet for fight shorts and compression shorts would have the largest immediate impact. It won't turn things around but it is likely to increase participation noticably. Reason being it helps add to the natural tie in with the MMA. Like it or not MMA has become revelavant in pop culture to a degree wrestling never has been. The kids see big name guys on TV fighting in the same gear they'll be wearing, that will have some impact on 10-15 year old kids. Nuway and Flo have done some of this and at first I was a little apprehensive (change is hard) but if it gets one more kid to come out per team (don't think thats entirely unreasonable) who could be against it?

Ummm look at the statistics from Ohio and Kansas, they BOTH have a lower rate of forfeits for the smaller schools. Obviously SOMETHING is hurting our numbers, while theirs aren't great, but not as bad as our numbers.

Data from both Kansas and Ohio show that their rates of forfeits are lower for the small schools in a classed environment. Indiana is doing great in that our big schools don't have as many forfeits. I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that big schools have more state qualifiers and capture more state series team titles.

I'll translate it even more for you, Kansas and Ohio have a better participation in the sport of wrestling at small schools than Indiana. Please tell me why that is.

I have added the comparisons for Indiana, Ohio, and Kansas to the original spreadsheet under the Statistics tab.

I just pulled some data from my home state of Kansas and put it into the same format..   Yea,  another of the beleaguered class wrestling states.  This is based on the participation of the past year  2015 state tournament series.   They have four classes but I combined the top two to   make it comparable.    Keep in mind, Indiana has a higher ration of large schools vs small schools.    Kanas has a  much less dense population  resulting in much more micro sized schools. 

 

 

 

 

  Size           Forfeits               Schools        Avg           School Size Range

   6A & 5a     122                      64                1.906         2301-760

   4A              249                      63                3.952        765-265

   3,2,1A        569                      89                6.393        <265    

If you put Indiana's schools with those enrollment numbers you get

6-5A- 1.14 forfeits per team

4A- 3.71 forfeits per team

3,2,1A- 7.3 forfeits per team

Once again it shows how small schools in a classed state are not as bad off as they are in Indiana.

Your answer for everything Y2. And actually Kansas is higher, so guess not.

My answer is simple logic, compare Kansas schools with 265 students or less to Indiana schools with 265 students or less. 

Our big schools are thriving, which is no shocker to anyone but you.

What? I thought Wrestling is alive and well in states that have classed wrestling!

Their small schools have more wrestlers than ours of the same size. Looks like class wrestling does work.

You have Hunter Reed in 2 times at 160.

Here is their class breakdown by school size
Division Enrollment Schools
I 351 and more 164
II 194-350 166
III 193 and less 167
Total Teams 497
Ohio Data per school
  Forfeits Schools Average
D1   2130    179   2.10
D2   2280    203   2.77
D3   1912    201   4.49

The size is boys only so DI is 702+, DII is 388-700, and DIII is 386-.
Here are Indiana's numbers if you split by those sizes
Size For  #Schools Avg
D1     202   152   1.33

D2    372   106   3.51
D3   286     50   5.72
 
As you can tell Ohio has 100 more small schools than we do.

From this data I can make a pretty strong argument that Ohio's small schools are in better shape than in Indiana.

If I read that right it says they had 1850 ish FF's, indiana had around 850 ish FF's. We are 1/2 the size of Ohio. Looks like class wrestling is hurting them.

They also have about 600 schools with wrestling compared to us with 300.